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 Another baby....

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EgypSwiftLady
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:26 am

Teresa wrote:
PS. When I said 'I have to put mine under running hot water' I meant my hands, not my husband... ROTFL ROTFL ROTFL Just thought I'd clarify that!


I knew what you ment!

But you did give me a giggle! Happy Dance Thrilled LOL
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EgypSwiftLady
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:35 am

Well despite my alarm clock not waking me up at the correct time Evil, wrong doing

Precious made it through another night Way To Go

He/she is starting to peep and seems to like our company already :Yes: I feel bad having to put her/him back in the incubator Very sad I can't wait til Precious is big enough to sit in my pocket while I work. I love it/them

I've started thickening the formula a bit for more nutrition.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:40 am

...that's wonderful news, Robin. I think you are going to be sleep deprived for a few days.
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:17 am

Appreciate the update, Robin. Thanks
I'm glad to hear things are going well. :Yes:

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EgypSwiftLady
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:26 am



This is just the yolk sack around the belly button ( lack of better term) right? Just want to make sure.

Just weighed Precious and he/she weighs all of 13 grams! Feeling great

I'm afraid you're right Charis Happy But it's for a great cause. :Yes:

You are very welcome Cindy Happy
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:34 am

Robin...I'm not sure what that is. I've never seen any thing like that before. Keep a close eye on it, for the next couple of days, to see if is starts to absorb into the body. If not, I would suspect canker.
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EgypSwiftLady
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:46 am

Matilda wrote:
Robin...I'm not sure what that is. I've never seen any thing like that before. Keep a close eye on it, for the next couple of days, to see if is starts to absorb into the body. If not, I would suspect canker.

How could it be canker when the parents came from our swift flock and have never been in contact with any other birds? We vaccinate, worm and do everything to keep the birds healthy.

The parents have a small flight that is half in. x half in. wire with a solid top, we made sure that even house wrens could'nt get in.

Not to dis you or anything Charis but now I'm worried... Very sad
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Joyfulsongtree
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:07 pm

Robin, I think you may have been right in your first assumption ...

Because many times the parents don't feed the babies right away - sometimes not for up to a whole day after hatching (though they do sit on them) the babies can and do live off the egg sack for quite awhile.

So my question(s) would be...
1. How soon after hatching did you begin the hand feeding?

2. Can early hand feeding stop the squab from feeding off the yolk?
2b. If yes, might cessation of feeding off of it cause the yolk to harden?

Maybe you can ask a vet or expert on here will be able to answer the second question(s) if the answer to the first is - before the baby was a day old...

I hope all turns out well.

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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:23 pm

Robin,
If you'd be more comfortable moving the baby from the incubator before much longer, here's a pic of a method successfully used to keep a 1 day old Senegal dove warm enough:



Best wishes and Prayers,


Last edited by Joyfulsongtree on Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:23 pm

Canker is in their system. Even when we treat them, it's impossible to completely eradicate it.
Let's not worry yet. Keep an eye on it. I'm just livng to take a chicken to the vet and when I get back I'll do some research and see if I can find some pictures of navel canker. If this baby has canker, you can treat it.
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EgypSwiftLady
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:30 pm

Matilda wrote:
Canker is in their system. Even when we treat them, it's impossible to completely eradicate it.
Let's not worry yet. Keep an eye on it. I'm just livng to take a chicken to the vet and when I get back I'll do some research and see if I can find some pictures of navel canker. If this baby has canker, you can treat it.


OK I'm gonna do some look'n myself. :Yes:

Have a safe trip & I hope the chickie is OK.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:02 pm

Robin...I'm back and can't find any images for navel canker. I asked at the vet clinic and the doctor, who is not used to Pigeons, looked at me like I have extra holes in my head, and then told me tyhat Pigeons do not have navels. I know, I told her, but there is a form of canker called navel canker .
I can find reference to it but no images.
Carol may be exactly right about what the yellow is and so really...don't go worrying about this. Wish I'd just kept my fingers from typing.
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EgypSwiftLady
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:47 pm

I couldn't find anything either Charis, but I did read that the parents give canker to the babies through feeding them and since Precious has never been fed by her/ his parents I shouldn't have to worry.

I'm gonna have to remember to look at any more babies, if we get any, to see if they have the yellow yolk stuff too.


thanks for taking the time to try & find out. Happy
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EgypSwiftLady
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:49 pm

Joyfulsongtree wrote:
Robin,
If you'd be more comfortable moving the baby from the incubator before much longer, here's a pic of a method successfully used to keep a 1 day old Senegal dove warm enough:



Best wishes and Prayers,


Thanks Carol for the idea Happy I just may do that once Precious gets a bit older. :Yes:
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:58 pm

EgypSwiftLady wrote:
I couldn't find anything either Charis, but I did read that the parents give canker to the babies through feeding them and since Precious has never been fed by her/ his parents I shouldn't have to worry.

I'm gonna have to remember to look at any more babies, if we get any, to see if they have the yellow yolk stuff too.


thanks for taking the time to try & find out.

I'll keep looking.
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Joyfulsongtree
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:58 pm

Charis, please don't wish your fingers didn't go typing. As uncomfortable as we can sometimes get with info, in the long run knowing can pay off big time - and as you originally pointed out, the canker is treatable.
Navel canker could still be a possibility, but only if the baby was fed at all by a carrier parent.

Robin, is there any way for you to know if the baby was fed by the parents at all ???
Knowing that may help to set your mind at rest.

This is what I found on Navel Canker:

Organisms may also enter the body through the unhealed navel of squabs. In this form, necrotic tumor-like swellings occur under the skin adjacent to the navel. Lesions can spread to various internal organs, particularly the liver. Large, well-defined, and yellowish areas of hepatic necrosis may be found on necropsy examination. http://www.avianweb.com/canker.html

Navel canker
If pigeon milk is spilt into the nest bowl and this, in turn, contaminates a nestling's navel that has not fully healed, a canker nodule can develop on the navel. Treat the nestling with the correct dose of Spartrix daily (usually 1 - 4 days). Antiseptics (such as Betadine) can be applied to the navel daily until the area has dried. After several days, the nodule can be 'popped' like a scab and separated from underlying healthy tissue. The condition must be caught early for treatment to be successful and for the youngster to be of value racing. The condition is more likely to occur when nest conditions are poor, leading to delayed navel healing, and is therefore often associated with 'wet nests' and with inappropriate nesting material. The condition is also more likely to occur if the parents are shedding large numbers of trichomonads. A suggested course of treatment is:
• Treat youngster and both parents daily with Spartrix
• Dab navel daily with Betadine
• Clean nest
• Treat parents for 'wet nest' if appropriate (PVM Powder and Probac)
• Improve nest conditions
http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/f6/canker-or-some-other-sickness-40310.html

Hoping for the best,
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:07 pm

EgypSwiftLady wrote:
I couldn't find anything either Charis, but I did read that the parents give canker to the babies through feeding them and since Precious has never been fed by her/ his parents I shouldn't have to worry.

I'm gonna have to remember to look at any more babies, if we get any, to see if they have the yellow yolk stuff too.


thanks for taking the time to try & find out. Happy


That is good news in regards to canker (that Precious was never fed by the parents)!!!

Best wishes,
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:08 pm

Thank you Carol.

I know I've seen a picture of the navel canker, I just can't remember where.
This has turned into a wonderful opportunity to learn about something I have fortunately, never had to contend with.
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:09 pm

EgypSwiftLady wrote:
Joyfulsongtree wrote:
Robin,
If you'd be more comfortable moving the baby from the incubator before much longer, here's a pic of a method successfully used to keep a 1 day old Senegal dove warm enough:



Best wishes and Prayers,


Thanks Carol for the idea Happy I just may do that once Precious gets a bit older. :Yes:

You're welcome Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:40 pm

Matilda wrote:
Thank you Carol.

I know I've seen a picture of the navel canker, I just can't remember where.
This has turned into a wonderful opportunity to learn about something I have fortunately, never had to contend with.

You're welcome Smile And you're right about the opportunity - forewarned is forearmed - still hoping none of us ever has to contend with that. It would be informative to see a pic though I looked too, couldn't find one.

Best wishes,
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:38 pm

Joyfulsongtree wrote:
Matilda wrote:
Thank you Carol.

I know I've seen a picture of the navel canker, I just can't remember where.
This has turned into a wonderful opportunity to learn about something I have fortunately, never had to contend with.

You're welcome Smile And you're right about the opportunity - forewarned is forearmed - still hoping none of us ever has to contend with that. It would be informative to see a pic though I looked too, couldn't find one.

Best wishes,


You are both so right about the warning about canker, it's always better to know than to go blindly forward.

I found the same info as you did Carol but couldn't find any photos. I would love to see what this looks like too... it never hurts to learn more. :Yes:

My elderly friend took Precious away because the poor babies parents just didn't want anything to do with it Very sad They wouldn't even go near the little one. :eek:
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:31 pm

EgypSwiftLady wrote:
Joyfulsongtree wrote:
Matilda wrote:
Thank you Carol.

I know I've seen a picture of the navel canker, I just can't remember where.
This has turned into a wonderful opportunity to learn about something I have fortunately, never had to contend with.

You're welcome Smile And you're right about the opportunity - forewarned is forearmed - still hoping none of us ever has to contend with that. It would be informative to see a pic though I looked too, couldn't find one.

Best wishes,


You are both so right about the warning about canker, it's always better to know than to go blindly forward.

I found the same info as you did Carol but couldn't find any photos. I would love to see what this looks like too... it never hurts to learn more. :Yes:

My elderly friend took Precious away because the poor babies parents just didn't want anything to do with it Very sad They wouldn't even go near the little one. :eek:

It's possible the parents 'knew' something was wrong with the baby and therefore abandoned it. I have heard of that hapening.

My first thought when I saw the picture was canker as well.
I'm sorry the wee one has an issue going on.
I hope you are able to get down to the bottom of it soon, Robin.

Please keep us posted.

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If we become ill or injured in any way,
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:28 pm

I've emailed the picture to Deb and asked for her opinion. I know she is on a retreat with the other doctors in the clinic so we may not have her opinion until tomorrow night.


Last edited by Matilda on Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:45 pm

Matilda wrote:
I've emailed the pciture to Deb and asked for her opinion. I know she is on a retreat with the other dioctors in the clinic so we may not have her opinion until tomorrow night.

It will be interesting to see what she has to say.

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PostSubject: Re: Another baby....   Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:34 am

Fancyfeathers wrote:
Matilda wrote:
I've emailed the pciture to Deb and asked for her opinion. I know she is on a retreat with the other dioctors in the clinic so we may not have her opinion until tomorrow night.

It will be interesting to see what she has to say.
Charis, I'm very relieved that you're getting Deb in on this.
Cindy, I wholeheartedly agree.

Robin, does the navel area look any better this morning???

I did a little more searching late last night - Precious' pic wasn't sitting right with me - the purplish colored skin around the still visible yolk sac as well as what appears to be swelling.
Almost hesitated to post the following because the last thing I want to do is worry you, but am in the spirit of your agreeing that it's always better to know than go blindly forward and also because I feel compelled to. I don't know if this condition applies to Precious or not, I'm hoping this will turn out to be just for the sake of gaining knowledge.
My Google searches did bring up other results indicating this condition in pigeons. The only images I could find were of poultry chicks though (see last link below).

Omphalitis

Omphalitis may be defined technically as an inflamation of the navel. As commonly used, the term refers to improper closure of the navel with subsequent bacterial infection (navel ill, mushy chick disease).

Cause: Most problems result from mixed bacterial infections including the common coliforms and various species belonging to the genera Staphylococcus, Streptococcus, Proteus, and others. Omphalitis usually can be traced to faulty incubation, poor hatchery sanitation, or chilling (Bold face mine) or overheating soon after hatching (such as in transit). The significance of isolating one of the bacterial species mentioned above is complicated in that many of the same species can be isolated from the yolks of supposedly normal birds immediately after hatching.

Transmission: Omphalitis occurs during the first few days of life, so it cannot be considered transmissable from bird to bird. It is transmitted from unsanitary equipment in the hatchery to newly hatched birds having unhealed navels.

Symptoms and lesions: Affected chicks usually appear drowsy or droopy with the down being "puffed up." They also generally appear to be of inferior quality and show a lack of uniformity. Many individuals stand near the heat source and are indifferent to feed or water. Diarrhea sometimes occurs. Mortality usually begins within 24 hours and peaks by 5 to 7 days.

Characteristic lesions are poorly healed navels, subcutaneous edema, bluish color of the abdominal muscles around the navel, and unabsorbed yolk material which often has a putrid odor. Often yolks are ruptured and peritonitis is common. (Bold face mine)

Diagnosis: A tentative diagnosis can be made on the basis of history and lesions. The presence of mixed bacterial infections and absence of any specific disease-producing agent aids in confirming the diagnosis.

Prevention and treatment: Good management and sanitation procedures in the hatchery and during the first few days following hatching are the only sure ways to prevent omphalitis.

Broad spectrum antibiotics help reduce mortality and stunting in affected groups, but they do not replace sanitation. http://chickaholic.wordpress.com/2009/01/29/bacterial-diseases-of-poultry-2/


There are two images about halfway down the page linked below. They're not pretty. I wanted to look for more, but am not feeling up to it.
http://www.kashvet.org/oasis/?tag=fracture

Thinking of you Robin, and hoping for the best!
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