Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics

Hi all. Am between a rock and a hard place. I have a patient, survivor of attempted hawk attack, resulting in a small gash beneath left eye. I treated him, washed the wound, applied silvadene to it, and medicated him w/ cipro and medacam. I then noticed he was exhibiting symptoms oft associated w/ PMV...star-gazing, floppy head, bad coordination, ability to walk only backwards....flapping wings wildly until he eventually falls over himself and just stops moving (usually with head under body by this point). I prop him up in a "towel-donut-nest"...but thru the night he has these "episodes which makes him flail about the cage..so I prop hm back again, etc....

Now, this also could be result of head trauma/neurological damage, I dunno for sure. But I do know hat, after giving the meds, his condition seemed to nosedive. very unresponsive, unalert, unable to even come anywhere close to eatng on hs own.

have been syringe-feedng...even that is diffcult...I don't wanna get the formula down the trachea, and it's difficult to get more than 1cc into him per feeding. Fortunately, I CAN get Pedialyte into him much more successfully. I don't think I can pull off tube down crop feeding, I am too scared to try....

I have read that antibiotics actually exacerbate PMV symptoms....but am in a tough position. The gash is definitely from the hawk, so skin was broken and contact made...so he needs the cipro to prevent bacterial infection. BUT....he likely has the viral PMV infection, and I am gleaning (hoping, actually) that the antibiotics is worsening his abilities to remain "with it".

I am handing him off to another member Sunday someone with a lotta PMV experience...but I need to keep the guy going thru the next 36 hrs...and he really doesn't look good.....

Hi Jaye,
Many thanks for taking over the care of this little guy.

Keeping him hydrated, as you are doing with the pedialyte, is primary right now.
I know they can go without food longer than without fluids.

Pij, our PMV bird was able to eat from a deep dish, so I didn't have to resort to other feeding measures. I don't tube feed either.

How about offering him some thawed, frozen peas, one at a time or some pieces of soaked puppy chow, if you have any available?

Given there is an attack and injury issue, I don't think not giving antibiotics is an option.

Cynthia may still be up and hopefully will check in before retiring. Charis should be on soon as well.

Please keep us posted.

Cindy

Hi Jaye,

I agree with Cindy, it would be worse to withhold antibiotics. It is giving them as a prophylactic that can do more harm than good sometimes because it has been known to aggravate the lesions, but that is not inevitable.

John nursed some of his "balcony pigeons" through PMV, hand feeding them defrosted peas and corn, about 50 twice a day. They did well, gained weight and produced impressively healthy poops. Now I use his method when tube feeding can be risky.

I don't think the antibiotics will have caused the worsening of his condition but some of us have noticed that giving two drops of calcium syrup twice a day can help.



Cynthia

I had a PMV pigeon who developed a wheeze when breathing, so I had no hesitation in giving him Baytril. It sorted out the problem in no time, though I gave him the full 7 days anyway.

John

Trials and tribulations of trying to feed this guy....up to his same old tricks last night. Took Pedialyte but not much formula. Seed poppong didn't work. Tried some other pigeon friends, but nobody else knew how to gavage/crop feed either.

I was out most of evening (my GF's B-Day) and when I got back this AM, he was still hanging in there. But I can now feel his keel bone rather prominently....

Spoke with a few more members, and Charis in particular ran through with me how to corn-pop/pea-pop w/o the hazard of possibly asphyxiation.

IT WORKED REALLY WELL THIS AM ! Got a bunch of defrosted, warmed corn kernels and some peas into him...then I crushed up some Parrot pellets and wetted them down as well...and he took those too ! Finally, for the first time he's been here, I could actually feel some semblance of his crop as it filled with breakfast...

He is gonna be getting a banquet today, for sure....


He also seemed to be doing better today, more alert, dfinitely putting up more of a fight...was able to open the eye on the side of the gash, which he didn't do too much before.

Symptoms still persist, head-lolling and backwards walking, etc...but he doesn't seem quite as zoned out as the last 2 days. All in all, a better place than I had assumed we'd be 24 hrs. ago.

He goes to his next caregiver tom'w. Thanks for all the replies...they are very helpful !

Appreciate the update, Jaye.
So glad to hear the feeding went better this morning.

Gotta love teamwork!

Sure...maybe I'll bring her up when I take the kid to college

Update: he is totally standing and moving like a pigeon now. His injured eye is open...BUT...I am not sure he has full sight, or even partial sight...in it. It seems he has some sight.

Now when i enter teh room he responds, looks around, etc. He is even preening himself. His head is still a tad loopy, but not at first glance...and way, way, way better than the previous days.

I dropped some seed into his cage just to see what he'd do, and he started pecking at it...kinda weakly, but definitely was trying. But this is when I noticed he tilts his head way to the side of the good eye...as if he is looking at the seed with the good ehye only, instead of pecking straight-on as a pidge usually does. So, I will get a look at that again, too. The gash was below the eye, not on the eye...the eye isn't compressed or anything, the lid is just only 3/4 open at best...so he may have some damage to his sight there, though.

Seem to have had a misconnection w/ the caregiver I was supposed to hand him to, so he is with me for another day...although at this point, he looks on the rebound and I feel pretty confident that now that he is eating and drinking well, I can mend him up myself if need be....

OK, so he continues to do smashingly. Is eating seed on his own now, seems to be drinking on his own now (when I put his beak to the water dish, he takes a big drink. I leave it in there with him, he seems to be drinking some, in between spilling it everywhere :eek:)

Both eyes open all the time now; although the one above the cheek cut seems to be able to open only about 80%...don't think it's an eye thing, but an eyelid thing. He definitely has sight out of it..I have been experimenting w/ approching him from that side and he clearly sees me coming....He spends almost all his time standing, although yesterday I found him sitting and stretching out his wings in the sunlight....

He even wing-whipped me tonight when I was changing his cage bottom !

So, couldn't have asked for a better turnaround..I am stoked.

But the Q's persist: does this seem like it is PMV and he is coming out of it ? Seems that he improved so fast. or was he maybe just in shock and suffering some temporary neurological symptoms from the attack ?

Lastly...gosh...would he be releasable ? I can answer half of that Q, based on my observations as to whether he has gained his full coordination and strength back; and his eyesight.....

...but I am also asking from the viewpoint of...if it was PMV...are PMV birds releasable or do they create a danger to a feral flock ???



ooh, look, I finally found the colors template !!!!

I don't think it was PMV. If it was, I doubt you'd be seeing such a rapid improvement.

I wonder if those extreme symptoms were brought on by the pain medicine, shock and hunger/dehydration? I don't know. Sounds like he will be releaseable if that eyelid improves.

Glad he's better.
Glad you found the color. Your post looks good in green.

This is the best up date you could have given us.

What a great update, Jaye.

Could you post a picture of the little guy? Would love to see him.

Cindy

Hi...do I have to upload to a web hosting site in order to post a pic here ? I cannot find a "manage attachments" function.

No you don't but it is complicated. When you're ready to post your picture, call me and I'll talk you through it.

Matilda wrote:

No you don't but it is complicated.
When you're ready to post your picture, call me and I'll talk you through it.

Thank you, Charis. That's the best way to do it.
Explaining (in a post) how to post photos is extremely ing.

What a cutie. Thanks for posting the pic, Jaye.
She's looking great.

Three for those awesome looking poops.

Bingo...it worked!
The bird looks older that I expected. Looks goo though.

Jaye wrote:

He had fledged before the attack, we figure.

He is doing really well today, he got to sit in front of the window and watch the ferals on my porch. He really was interested in that...

BTW, the eye facing the camera was the "bad" eye...seems to have made a good recovery.

It looks great!!

Is he a releasable?

I hope the release goes as planned.
Please do let us know how it goes.