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 Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(

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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:43 pm

Hi Dev,

I don't know if Birdie also likes to perch on the edge of the feeder, like Sammy, but if he does here is an idea that worked really well for a deep, stable and reduced-mess Laughing feeder which was really easy to make. You'll need to scroll about 2/3 down the page:

http://www.pigeonangels.com/pigeon-and-dove-chit-chat-f12/helpful-hints-and-tips-t869-15.htm

Good luck!
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:55 pm

Priya, all thanks to you for the nice name Smile

Teresa, thank you so much Smile

Here is the video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRcLl9DnZnM Sorry for the poor quality, It was shot with my mobile camera. Let me know what you guys feel.
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:13 pm

Appreciate the video, Dev. You did a great job.
Bless you both.

From the video I would suspect PMV. Didn't you also mention when he is startled he will go into one of his spasms?

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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:15 pm

Poor Birdie! He's definitely suffering from the type of neurological disorder commonly associated with PMV (but whether it is PMV cannot be known for sure without a virus test). With tender loving care the symptoms will ease out with time, as he puts on weight and his immune system gets stronger.

You may want to compare your video to this one of Sammy's. At present she is better than that, but it's been a very slow progress.

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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:26 pm

Teresa wrote:
Poor Birdie! He's definitely suffering from the type of neurological disorder commonly associated with PMV (but whether it is PMV cannot be known for sure without a virus test). With tender loving care the symptoms will ease out with time, as he puts on weight and his immune system gets stronger.

You are exactly right, Teresa.

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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:39 pm

I agree with Cindy and Teresa, Dev. I do suspect Birdie has a virus that has affected his brain. He does look better from when Priya rescued him but improvement sure has been long.
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:50 pm

@Teresa, Thanks for sharing the video, it looks exactly the same Very sad Sending my prayers to Sammy. This poor birdie didn't even have the strength to stand up when we found him. But now he can walk a bit and tries to run away when I go near him.

@Cindy, Yeah, at times when he gets tensed, he looses control of his neck and he also tries to move himself which makes his body to be rolled a few times. I am sure he must be undergoing severe pain when this happens Very sad

@Charis, I agree with you guys. Just praying all the time that everything goes well.

Thanks for all the help and support Smile Can't imagine what we would have done without all your support.
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:35 am

Couldn't bear to watch both the videos Very sad Poor little birds, what they must be going through to suffer like this :( Such a horrible disease :(

Teresa, glad to hear that Sammy is doing better now. How long did it take for her to reach the stage of improvement? Can she eat/drink on her own? Can these birds ever fly? Disappointed

Agree with you all, with lots of care, nourishment and support, they will eventually recover. It is a long road ahead. Can't bear to see how they suffer though :(

Sending healing thoughts and prayers to both little Birdie and Sammy
And thanks a lot Teresa and Dev for providing great care for these birds Pigeon angel
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:14 am

spdevanand wrote:


@Cindy, Yeah, at times when he gets tensed, he looses control of his neck and he also tries to move himself which makes his body to be rolled a few times. I am sure he must be undergoing severe pain when this happens Very sad

Thanks for all the help and support Smile Can't imagine what we would have done without all your support.

Hi Dev, Hi there/Bye

Our Pij would have severe seizures without any warning.
It's possible they experience some degree of pain when this happens as their muscles get very rigid. At least Pij's used to.
I would compare it to us tensing up some of our muscles in ways we don't normally do.
After a while of that on a near continuous basis our muscles would begin to ache. I believe the same would happen to pigeons. Very sad

There was a statement made (not here on PA ) during a discussion of a pigeon who sustained a severe injury and/or illness and some were concerned that he was in pain.

This is the statement directed to those of use who were concerned. Very sad
"For those of you who look at the bird and always see "IT'S IN PAIN!!!", just let it go..you're probably in a lot more pain looking at the bird that it actually is.."

Initially I was saddend to read that statement. Very sad Then the saddness turned in to rage. Major Rant

The only thing I could think of at the time was that some people must figure pigeons don't feel pain because they don't shed tears or cry out, which is completely insane to me. nutter
The person who made that statement, btw, is supposed to be very familiar with severely injured pigeons. Serious EEK!!






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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:45 am

Got me angry too reading that statement Seeing red/mad It is akin to a pigeon thinking that a human is comfortable after breaking all his bones, just because it doesn't understand our language or expressions to depict pain.

When will some people be blessed with the commonest of senses, which is common sense nutter
I feel such people are insensitive to the needs and pain of other people and creatures. They go about their job mechanically, even if it is to treat an injured bird or animal. Sick.
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:49 am

I agree with you Priya. Seeing red/mad
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:36 am

priya wrote:
Got me angry too reading that statement Seeing red/mad It is akin to a pigeon thinking that a human is comfortable after breaking all his bones, just because it doesn't understand our language or expressions to depict pain.

When will some people be blessed with the commonest of senses, which is common sense nutter
I feel such people are insensitive to the needs and pain of other people and creatures. They go about their job mechanically, even if it is to treat an injured bird or animal. Sick.

Thank you Priya. Happy
Insensitive is the exact word I was looking for when attempting to describe the statement that was made. For some reason, it just wouldn't come to mind. Disappointed




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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:32 pm

I agree with you guys. Just because birds and animal do not shed tears, or these poor birds who do not even make any crying sound Very sad most of the humans assume that they are not undergoing any pain Very sad Its too hard to making such people realize their mistakes. I wish they all change.
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:43 pm

spdevanand wrote:
I agree with you guys. Just because birds and animal do not shed tears, or these poor birds who do not even make any crying sound Very sad most of the humans assume that they are not undergoing any pain Very sad

Its too hard to making such people realize their mistakes. I wish they all change.

I agree with you, Dev.

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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:58 pm

Naturally I agree with you all -- every creature who has a nervous system can feel pain, and it's just downright idiotic for anyone to say the contrary!
Having said that, I spoke to my vet about Sammy's seizures, and apparently they resemble epilepsy in people. If that's the case, birds with seizures will certainly have sore muscles afterwards, but thankfully thay may not be in pain during the seizure itself. I had an epileptic flatmate for a while, and although she felt dizzy, tired and a bit nauseous after a fit, she told me she felt nothing during, it was like she had fainted, though her muscles twitched and her eyes were open.
I hope this helps and puts your mind at rest a little.

If it is PMV, after about 6 weeks the birds stop shedding the virus, and after the second bath there will be none left on the feathers either. At that point there is no more danger of contagion, and they can share living quarters with other pigeons. Mind you, gentle pigeons only, otherwise they will peck the convalescent bird.
Some birds stop having most of the symptoms after 6 weeks (like Plamen's) but others continue to show them for much longer. A few will always have one or more symptoms.
Plamen doesn't release his after they recover, as he says there's always a chance a seizure would be triggered if they are startled by a cat, a dog or a car -- and he won't gamble on the consequences.
On the other hand, Petra has successfully managed to release most of hers, once she was confident they were strong enough and flying well.

My Sammy is definitely a keeper! She was unable to feed herself for 7 months, though she could drink by herself. Now she can do everything other pigeons do (including having a mate and laying eggs) except that her flying skills are appaling! She takes off in a spiral, gets 2 feet off the ground, and comes back down in a spiral again, often landing awkwardly. Nonetheless, she looks all proud of her achievement, straightening up immediately and strutting her stuff across the room, pleased as punch!
It's been a learning curve with this one... and the golden lesson I gained from it was 'never give up'! Smile

Very important: birds with seizures can drown very easily in their drinking water or in the bath. At bath time we must be beside them, to help support them and be ready to lift them out of the water if needed. And drinking vessels should be deep and narrow, too narrow for them to get their head inside it, just the beak.

I hope Birdie starts to relax more around you. It's hard for an adult feral to feel comfortable in the presence of humans, but with time and patience a lot can be achieved. Suspicious birds can sometimes be won over (or at least they become intrigued, rather than antagonic) if you make interesting sounds at them, like imitating bird song, or singing to them. Try that if you like, our reputations have nothing to lose from it, as we already are cpp and proud of it! Happy Dance
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:23 pm

Great post, Teresa.


"we already are cpp and proud of it!" Happy Dance

How right you are!! Happy Dance Thrilled


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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:39 am

Thanks Teresa, that was an eye opener

Yes the seizures definitely resemble a human epileptic one. It makes me feel better to think that they may not be in much pain during the seizures..poor birds, it always used to pain me to think about the trauma they must be undergoing, when they get one of those attacks Very sad , speaking of which you are right, any living species that has a nervous system obviously is sensitive to pain. We can only hope and pray that these seizures aren't unbearable for them :(

As you said, it is a matter of personal choice, based on the bird's recovery and progress, if they can be released or not. If it is like Sammy's case where she cannot fly properly, then they definitely cannot be released. Sammy seems to be such a sweet one Smile she definitely is a brave little bird

Though Birdie still has a long way to go, i am pretty nervous about the thought of releasing him, even if he completely recovers. As you mentioned about Plamen, the chances of a relapse is high if they are stressed or startled or cannot find proper source of food/water. I would definitely want Dev to keep him along with Mito and Sia, though how feasible it would be for him and the logistics is for him to decide as space is a major constraint :(. I am sure he feels as strongly about keeping Birdie as i do :) Let's see what happens....still a long way to go before Birdie gets better.

Dev tells me Birdie loves to walk around and explore the place Happy He is still suspicious of humans, which is quite natural...so the moment he sees Dev approaching, he tries to escape. And he creates a big fuss to eat Evil, wrong doing but he doesn't have a choice in those matters :)

I loved the idea of singing to them That's too funny Dev should try it That's too funny Yes we all are cpp after all! crazy crazy
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:26 am

priya wrote:
Though Birdie still has a long way to go, i am pretty nervous about the thought of releasing him, even if he completely recovers. As you mentioned about Plamen, the chances of a relapse is high if they are stressed or startled or cannot find proper source of food/water. I would definitely want Dev to keep him along with Mito and Sia, though how feasible it would be for him and the logistics is for him to decide as space is a major constraint :(. I am sure he feels as strongly about keeping Birdie as i do :) Let's see what happens....still a long way to go before Birdie gets better.

I'm glad my post helped, Priya! Happy
I totally understand the difficulties of trying to help all the birds that need us when space is limited and there's nobody near who can give them a permanent home or even babysit them for you. My home is slowly but surely turning into an aviary, and my dining room is more often occupied by cats then by people. All we can do is do our best and take one day at a time.
I remember reading a very moving message from a Pakistani member in another forum. He said, 'Blessed is the man who keeps a bird well, because the bird will pray for him.' Pigeon angel

Sammy is very much a part of the family. She's very confident, curious and demanding, and seeing her enjoying life I feel deep down inside that it was right to nurse her through all the bad times, that she didn't find the experience traumatising. And if it's good enough for her, it's good enough for me! Tickled Pink
This is a more recent video, where she's considering the best way to peck the camera... That's too funny

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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:00 am

Teresa wrote:

I remember reading a very moving message from a Pakistani member in another forum.
He said, 'Blessed is the man who keeps a bird well, because the bird will pray for him.'
Pigeon angel

I love that! I love it/them
Sammy is such a sweetie. Star quality
Great video.

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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:50 am

Dev and Priya, Teresa has said everything but I also want to emphasize that the seizures of a sick bird are terribly to look at and I can tell you that I was more than once in tears but I don't think that the birds feel pain at that moment.

There is rather the danger of injuring themselves when they have these cramps. I often took Pina - she was the one with the worst seizures - wrapped her up and carried her with me around, softly talking to her until she found her peace again. She was even worse than your bird and worse than Teresa's Sammy. She made awful tumbles in the box, was rolling her eyes and absolutely lost direction. So I rather put her into her box, which I had patted with a lot of stuff so that she could not bang her head.



The danger that they try to fly on some object and then fall down is also present - so it is better to keep them in a well confined space.

But the most important message is - as Teresa already said - don't give up hope. I had more than 5 moments in those 9 months where I nearly despaired and was SURE that Pina would never be able to fly again in her life not to speak of being set free. There were so many relapses that I could not imagine that she would make it. But one day the miracle happened...

Before I let the birds free I tested them and watched them closely. But somehow I always knew when they were ready to go. Besides Pina's current health problems there are no symptoms on any of the birds and they all enjoy good health.



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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:49 am

Thank you Teresa and Petra for sharing your thoughts on how to take care of such birds Thank You It was much needed and also helped us by giving confidence that Birdie may eventually recover one day.

Petra i agree with you, poor Pina underwent a lot. From the posts i followed about her, she definitely seemed to be suffering a lot more than poor Sammy and Birdie Very sad And as you said out of total 11 months in her life, she was ill for 9 months and she is still battling it out :( I'm following the other thread on her, but i'm sure Pina will again bounce back as she is a brave little sweet pidgie Bless her little heart!

to you Petra for taking care of all your babies so patiently and nursing them back to health. It must be quite heart breaking for you to see little Pina and the other sick birds suffer so much...but being the perfect Pigeon angel that you are, you go on and shower them with all the TLC that they deserve Smile

Teresa, Sammy is too cute! That's too funny i just loved that video...she indeed looks like she is contemplating where to peck the cam Happy she is such a sweetheart!
And i loved that saying too!

You are right, when we see them recover and leading a normal life, it is worth everything...all the trauma and pain we went through to see the slow process of healing, everything is wiped out when we see them lead a happy life again cheers After all that's what we want for them and nothing brings more joy

The danger of the bird getting hurt when it undergoes seizures is very valid. From the past 2 days Birdie is trying to fly. She gets up 3 feet off the ground and comes crashing down Very sad poor Birdie desperately wants to fly i guess...
So Dev has decided to keep him in a cage lined with lots of papers and towels so that he doesn't try to fly and doesn't hurt himself when he gets fits.
Birdie also walks around a lot...he keeps getting those seizures but doesn't want to sit in a place or be contained :(
But i guess the danger of hurting himself doing all this is big...so he needs to be contained. Probably for sometime during the day when Dev is around, he can let it out and monitor it...
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sat Jul 24, 2010 11:06 am

Tip -- turning a cage into a padded call:

The easiest way to pad the walls and bottom of a cage, is to cut panels of soft cardboard, cover them with plastic (for waterproofing and ease of cleaning) and secure them in place with tape or with string threaded through small holes at the corners of the panels.
Then, instead of having to change/adjust the padding, you only need a quick wipe and a change of newspapers! Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:50 am

Teresa wrote:
Tip -- turning a cage into a padded call:

The easiest way to pad the walls and bottom of a cage, is to cut panels of soft cardboard, cover them with plastic (for waterproofing and ease of cleaning) and secure them in place with tape or with string threaded through small holes at the corners of the panels.
Then, instead of having to change/adjust the padding, you only need a quick wipe and a change of newspapers! Happy

That's cool :cool: Great job Thanks Teresa! didn't strike me earlier. Will definitely do it like what you've mentioned...makes cleaning up a lot easier!
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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Mon Jul 26, 2010 6:33 am

It does make life easier, but when Birdie gets better he will want to add a personal touch, like Sammy. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Rescued another pigeon, perhaps with PMV :(   Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:55 am

They do love the feathers, don't they?
Dolly is obsessed with them.

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