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 Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!

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Irene
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PostSubject: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:48 pm

Hi to all the good-hearted pigeon lovers,

I have finally learned how to use this precious site and I'm sending you a message because my 7 week old pigeon Comis is very ill and I don't know what's wrong with him... Some days ago, his little sister Laithi died after showing the same symptoms that Comis has now: inability to fly, hanging wings and tail, balance problems (that got worse to the point that the bird could not stand on its feet any more...), sudden loss of appetite (a few hours before death) and sudden breathing difficulties combined with bleeding from the beak that led to death in a few hours. Fortunately, Comis doesn't have internal bleeding (at least not yet!), he is just 'fallen' and lying flat since this morning and he can't get up... Until yesterday he was eating and drinking well, but today I had to forcefeed him (I gave him wholemeal bread and wheat seeds)... Fortunately this evening he drank water by himself when I brought his water container closer to him... A few days ago I took him to the vet, together with his parents, and the vet made faeces and saliva analises for them but she didn't find anything at all in them! They seemed to be healthy! So she didn't give me any antibiotics although I told her that my other baby pigeon died from an internal bleeding... She couldn't understand what was the cause of her death! My friend Myriam (an expert on pigeons) had posted a letter for me on this forum and she was told that my poor baby Laithi probably had internal canker and that I should have treated her with Metronidazole... Sadly, she died so fast that I didn't have time even to buy the medicine, but now I have the medicine here with me and I'm wondering whether I should give it to Comis! The farmacist gave me 'Flagyl Metronidazole 250 mg' in pills. If I give it to Comis how many mg I should give him and how often? Should I give him this medicine although I'm not sure whether he has canker or something else? Comis weighs 255 gr, what would be the right dose for him? Does anyone know? Could anyone advice me what to do? I hope it's not late..! I thank from the bottom of my heart all of you who had sent me advice on poor Laithi and also for your sympathy after her death! I was very sad for her and I hope not to lose Comis too... He is a very affectionate cute baby and today he was kissing my hands as I was stroking his head. He doesn't know how ill he is... He seems to be very relaxed. At least he is not suffering... Thank you for reading my message! I hope somebody can help little Comis!

Warm greetings from Venice, Italy,
Irene
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:43 pm

Hi Irene. Hi there/Bye
I am so very sorry to hear about Comis. Very sad

Quite honestly, from the description you are giving on his symptoms, I would hesitate to say canker as a first option. That's not to say it isn't.
From my experience with canker pigeons they decline gradually. To be eating and drinking one day and then near death the next just doesn't sound like canker.

Thankfully, I very rarely have any ill pigeons so I'm not well versed on the different types of illnesses, their symptoms or medication dosing. Hopefully, one of our members who is will be on soon.
Is there any chance you can post a photo of Comis?
What do his droppings look like?

With all due respect, is there another vet you might be able to get a second opinion from?
There is clearly something wrong with Comis. Very sad

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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:32 pm

Hi Cindy,

thank you very much for your reply! I also doubt it is canker because Comis doesn't have any lessions in his mouth or yellowish discharges (which are typical symptoms of canker)... When his sister Laithi died some days ago, I opened her mouth to see if there were any marks in it, but I couldn't find anything in her either... but her whole throat was red with blood that seemed to come from deep inside... I was looking on the internet at the symptoms of various pigeon diseases and it seems to me that Selmonella / Paratyphoid could be a likely one... I would need a blood test to confirm it but the vet told me that it would take about 4-5 days to get the results and I don't know if Comis will still be alive by then... I'm thinking whether I should give him antibiotics for Selmonella... Unfortunately, here in Venice people hate pigeons and even the vets they don't treat birds... They only care for cats and dogs, it's so sad... I took Comis to a vet outside the city, very far away, and she is the only one who accepted to see him... But I don't think she knows much about birds... I wish I could find a more competent vet who could help poor Comis but it's really difficult... As for Comis, I just went to check on him and take some photos of him to post here as you suggested and he seemed very relaxed... He still doesn't have appetite but he was very thirsty and I gave him some water to drink... I have put him in a box for animals that I have filled with straw and on top of the straw I have put some kitchen paper to create a sort of 'matress' for Comis to keep him warm and comfortable. I have put his box near the radiator (for extra warmth...) in the bathroom which is quiet and dark so that he may rest well. Let's hope he survives the night... I'm very worried for him... I will try to attach the photos of him right now (if it doesn't work I will try again in a separate message)... Comis has no external signs of illeness apart from the fact that he can't stand on his feet... He is a crossbreed between a Pavoncello dove and a normal pigeon and he is a very beautiful and rare bird... He is orange-brown with white and his feathers seem to be in good condition... His droppings are quite slimy / sticky and they consist of dark spaggetti-like pieces and greenish water with a bit of foam...

Irene
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:40 pm

Irene...yellow lesions in the mouth and throat are only one of the symptoms of canker. Most think of them as the only symptom because it's the one that can be easily seen. Canker just as often as naught is not visible in the throat and mouth but rather attacks the internal organs. Upon weaning, many that have pigeons treat them for canker, coccidia and worms.
Canker can be difficult to diagnose because the parasite is very fragile and don't love long outside of the body.
it is very important to keep food in the baby. Rather than bread and seed, try the following which are from prewritten instructions.

You can hand feed defrosted peas. Run some hot water over them until they are defrosted and slightly warmed. Put the bird on your lap and hold it next to your body. If it helps, you can wrap a towel around it or put it in the sleeve of a tee shirt, with the head out the wrist. That confines them without hurting them and makes it easier to handle. Gently open the beak and pop the peas at the back of the mouth and over the throat.
You will need to feed 40-50 per feeding and every time the crop empties until you know the baby is eating on his own.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:43 pm

It wouldn't hurt to start this baby on metronidazole. You can give him 25mg one time a day for 5 days.
Do keep him warm.
Has he been wormed?
Do you have any antibiotics on hand?
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:00 pm

Here are some symptoms of internal canker taken from an article by Colin Walker.

Internal canker

Canker can infect internal sites associated with the digestive tract, notably the bile duct, which drains bile from the liver into the bowel. Birds with internal canker nodules usually display non-specific signs of illness, including weight loss, lethargy, reluctance to eat and green diarrhoea. The final diagnosis is often made at autopsy. In lofts with a canker problem, it is usually best to include a daily Spartrix or Flagyl tablet in the treatment regime of an unwell bird in case this is the problem.



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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:21 pm

Dear Charis,

thank you very much for your help! I trust your words, if it is possible to be canker I'll treat Comis with Metronidazole, as you adviced me! How should I give him his medicines? Shall I cut a tiny piece (of 25mg) of the pill (which is 250 mg) and put in in his throat? Or should I try to melt it in a little water? The problem is that if it is in the water he may not drink it... Shall I give it to him together with food or is it better to take it with empty stomach? Thank you very much for telling me what to feed him... I had never thought to give him defrosted peas, but they must be a good source of bitamins and since they are soft, it will be easy for him to swallow them... I have never given my baby pigeons any medicines because I thought they were healthy (I have 5 of them including Comis), so I have not wormed them and I have not given them medicines for Coccidiosi or Canker. One year ago, the father of Comis (and of the other babies) had a companion that had Cocciosi and died and after that I gave him antibiotics for Coccidiosi in his water for a week. Fortunately he never showed any symptoms of the disease. Then I got him a new companion, with whom he mated and they had many babies. Their first two babies died the first day they came out of their eggs and I never understood why... The second and third babies were all healthy, but the last ones, Laithi and Comis were both ill... I'm wondering if their mother is ill too... She seems healthy but she usually has diarroia and her droppings are very large and have a bad smell... If she has an illness, perhaps Comis and Laithi caught it from her... All the birds live in my house and they never go out... I wanted to take the mother of Comis to the vet for an examination but she has laid eggs again so I have let her in her nest... Should I give medicines to all of them to protect them from Coccidiosi, worms and Canker? What medicines should I give them? Should I feed little Comis also at night or should I let him rest? How often should I feed him? Thank you so much for your valuable advice...

Irene
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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:40 pm

You can take the piece of the pill and put it in her mouth toward the back of the tongue. To do this, hold the bird on your lap and against your body. open the beak and put the pill in. Way to the back of the throat. Let her swallow it. You can feed the peas the same way. Metronidazole will sometimes make them vomit, so better to give it with food, so her tummy isn't empty.

Salmonella/Paratyphoid can cause the babies to die before hatching or shortly there after. And a bird can be a carrier and not show symptoms. Here is a link on that information.

http://www.internationalmodenaclub.com/The%20Doctors%20Corner/diagnosis.htm#Salmonellosis%20%28paratyphoid%29
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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:45 pm

What do her poops look like?
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:56 pm

Irene...I am checking your thread often so as to help you with your baby. I have my own emergency going on at the moment with my beloved Romey so do excuse me if I don't answer you right away. I will do my best.
Here are the instructions for converting a 250mg metronidazole pill into an oral suspension.


This is a formula for metronidazole:

250 mg. tablet + 10 ml (cc) water (or, syrpalta, grape flavored)

This will be at 25 mg/ml concentration

Example: 250 gram bird - Dose 20 mg/kg (the 20 mg/kg is a set standard for this medicine): Weight is converted to kilograms .25 kg x 20 mg/kg divided by 25 mg/ml equals a dose of 0.2 ml (cc).

I use bottled water, room temp, and refrigerate.. It is extremely important that the pill be pounded into a powder and then put in the water. ALWAYS shake the bottle strongly to get it mixed well, and draw the medicine immediately after shaking.

This is from my vet. Some weights/dosage: 175 grams - .14 cc; 275 grams - .22 cc; 400 grams - .32 cc.

Instructions from Maggie.






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Jackie\'s Mom
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:33 pm

Irene, I'm sorry I'm comming in here a little late. Sounds to me like your bird could have internal canker and/or salmonella/paratyphoid.

Since you are already treating the bird with Flagyl/metronidazole I would continue with that for the canker, However, I would add a broad spectrum antibotic as well. Either Baytril or Cipro. Is there any way you can get either of these drugs? These drugs work well together with the Flagyl and in addition to treating for the canker the other antibotic would treat for the salmonella at the same time.

Sending healing thoughts and prayers your way.

Louise
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:53 pm

Hi Irene,

I've never treated a bird with symptoms that include bleeding from the beak, but reddening of the throat can be associated with canker, infectious catarrh and YBS (Young Bird Sickness). This last one is not an illness as such, but a combination of illnesses, which includes one or more types of bacteria, viruses and sometimes fungi. It is very often fatal, because it's so hard to treat all of those at the same time.

I think it's worth considering one possibility: E-coli can produce several of the symptoms you described, and it can be a fast killer -- it's always present in the intestines of a bird (in moderate amounts) which would explain why your vet's tests didn't show anything out of the ordinary. Have a look at this:
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/digestivetract-ecoli.php
E-coli is treated with antibiotics.
Notice that similar symptoms can be found in other diseases, including Salmonellosis, but I've treated several pigeons with it and the course of the disease wasn't like that.
Tuberculosis is also a major killer of pigeons here in Europe, but the symptoms come on gradually and the bird loses a lot of weight before dying.

It would be good to treat for canker, even if it isn't the culprit. This year has been the worst for canker that I can remember: some of us have lost so many rescues, so quickly, and even our vets were unable to save them.
........................................................................................................................................................................

I've just seen your new post. Others will be able to give you better advice, but I'll try my best!

Flagyl 250mg -- I use that too. Don't put it in the drinking water, that wouldn't work.
I prefer to give them one tenth of a tablet, putting it inside one of the pieces of corn after squeezing the warm water out of it. That way they don't taste it (it tastes awful) and you know that if he's swallowed the corn, he'll have swallowed the pill. I break up the pill in half, and then cut each half in 5 equal pieces. It can be hard, and you'll end up with bits and powder, but it's possible with a little patience.
Or you can powder the tablet, mix it with 1 ml of water, and give him 0.1 ml a day with a syringe (you can get a 1 ml syringe at any vet's or pharmacy), right at the back of his throat. The air passage is before that, and no liquid must get in there, or the bird may die of pneumonia. The tablet doesn't dissolve, it only forms a suspension, so it needs to be shaken before use. Between uses I keep it in the fridge.

When to medicate -- it's best to do it an hour or so after eating, when there is some food in the crop, otherwise he may be sick.

Large, smelly poops -- may be from spending a long time in the nest, but diarrhea isn't a good sign. Maybe Coccidiosis is involved. Did you use Coxi Plus before? Because that's what I was prescribed for it, but it didn't seem to do anything for my birds.

Babies died a day after hatching -- probably Salmonella, or canker, or both.

Worming -- all birds need worming regularly, but that's best left for later, after life-threatening diseases are treated. The best is Moxidectin Plus, which kills all types of worms, and external blood-sucking parasites too. Failing that, my vet recommended using two together: Ivomec (Ivermectin), one drop iside the beak, plus Combantrin (Pyrantel pamoate), 2 mg/kilo, or 0.5 mg for Comis.

When to feed -- 3 or 4 meals a day are fine for 5-week old babies and older, if they're keeping the food down and have a normal weight. If Comis is younger than this, then more meals with smaller amounts, always checking the crop is empty before feeding. He won't need to be fed during the night unless he is very debilitated.

It would be good to see pictures of Comis and his mother, and their poops.

Best wishes! Smile
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:43 pm

Dear 'Niteowl' and Charis,

thank you for your suggestions! 'Niteowl', the link that you sent me is very useful indeed! I wonder if I could treat Comis for Selmonella and Canker at the same time... Isn't there any general antibiotic that could treat many illnesses at the same time? Who knows what disease poor Comis actually has... Canker and Selmonella both seem likely...! Charis, is it necessary to disolve the pill in the water? Could I not give the piece (25ml) of the pill directly to the bird, as 'Niteowl' suggested? It seems easier like that... But if it is better to disolve the pill, let me see if I have understood well...: I must take a pill of 250mg and disolve it in 10ml of water, right? After that, I must take 0,2 ml of the mixture and give it to the bird, did I understand well...? Right now I also read the message of Luise!

Hi Luise,

thank you for writing to me too, you have really read my mind and you have answered my question! I'll go to the Pharmacy tomorrow morning and ask if they have Baytril or Cipro. I only hope that Comis doesn't die suddenly like his poor sister did some days ago... He really needs our prayers! And so does also Romey, the beloved dove of Charis, who is also ill... May they both survive and recover fast!! Poor innocent birds...

Dear Teresa,

I just read your message too! Thank you for explaining to me everything so well! Perhaps little Comis has many diseases at the same time and I don't know if he will be lucky enough to survive but I will try my best to save him and I will follow all your practical advice! There are so many terrible illnesses that our birds can catch, it's a real nightmare for us who love them and are so afraid of losing them... As for Laithi (who died some days ago) and her brother Comis (who is now struggling to survive) they ate normally... The only symptom that Laithi had was that her wings and tail were hanging and toughing the floor, her back was curved and she couldn't walk properly, she could not even open her wings... She was in that condition for about one week before she died. However, she was in a good mood, she kept kissing her brother Comis, cleaning her feathers, playing with the straw in her cage and I thought that she only had a genetic defect in her spine... But she suddenly started coughing endlessly and bleeding from her beak and then I understood that she was actually ill and sadly it was too late to save her... In a few hours she died and her little body was lying in a pool of blood... It was terrible... I have never seen a bird dying in that way... I cried very much for her... The poops of Comis are quite slimy / sticky and they consist of dark spaggetti-like pieces and greenish water with a bit of foam... He doesn't have diarhoea... But his mother's poops are very loose and all of the same colour and substance, light brown like mud... Sometimes they are bulky and contain a lot of foam, other times they are thin and almost greenish-yellowish and they seem to contain little particles in them as if they contained dust...! I will take photos of them in the morning (here in Italy it is night now and the birds are sleeping) and I'll post them. I also tried to post some photos of Comis in my previous messages but they could not be uploaded, I don't know why... I'll try again later! Concerning Coccidiosi, I had treated the father of Comis with Sulfac, I put some drops in his water... I don't know if it worked or it was just a matter of luck, but my pigeon didn't get the disease, and I was very glad for it! Let's hope little Comis may have some good luck like his father...!

Irene
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:01 pm

Irene...you can treat for canker and salmonella at the same time. Give one medication in the morning and the other in the evening. Yes you can give 25mg at the back of the throat and the bird will swallow it. Some prefer a oral suspension when working with larger pills. Do give the medication on a crop with food as the medication can make the bird vomit.

This medication will work well for salmonella, E-Coli and other bacteria as well. Rather than the instructions on the package, I give 1 pill a day for 10 days. The same company has other good medications including one for coccidia. Most coccidia medications need to be repeated after 10 days.

http://www.pantex.net/pigeons/datasheets/Salmonella-tab.pdf
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:34 pm

Thanks to everyone for joining in to help Irene with Comis. Thank You

I'm still thinking there is more going on with him than canker.
I, personally, have never witnessed any pigeon suspected of having canker, whether it be internal or visible, all of a sudden drop down and not be able to walk or use it's wings.
I had thought possibly paratyphoid, but I hadn't thought of e-coli. Hmmm

I will be thinking special thoughts for you and Comis, Irene. Pigeon angel
Please keep us posted.

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If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:56 pm

Irene wrote:
Dear 'Niteowl' and Charis,

thank you for your suggestions! 'Niteowl', the link that you sent me is very useful indeed! I wonder if I could treat Comis for Selmonella and Canker at the same time... Isn't there any general antibiotic that could treat many illnesses at the same time? Who knows what disease poor Comis actually has... Canker and Selmonella both seem likely...! Charis, is it necessary to disolve the pill in the water? Could I not give the piece (25ml) of the pill directly to the bird, as 'Niteowl' suggested? It seems easier like that... But if it is better to disolve the pill, let me see if I have understood well...: I must take a pill of 250mg and disolve it in 10ml of water, right? After that, I must take 0,2 ml of the mixture and give it to the bird, did I understand well...? Right now I also read the message of Luise!

No, you would need to give him 1 ml of suspension if you mix the pill with 10 ml of water, as Charis suggested; or 0.1 ml of suspension if you only mix the pill with 1 ml of water, as I do -- either way, it works out as one tenth of the 250 mg pill.
Note also that when Charis said '1 pill a day for 10 days', she meant 25 mg a day for 10 days -- we poor cousins in Europe only get the 250 mg pills! Laughing

In answer to your question to Charis, about a medication that would treat lots of things at the same time, there is a pill that does that, but it's not specific, it's VERY strong, especially for a weakened bird, and the side effects can be really bad. The problem is that the method of treatment for a virus is the opposite of the treatment for bacteria, and each will make the other problem worse. Then you have the protozoans (canker, coccidia, hexa), the fungi (aspergillus, etc) and the worms (roundworms, hairworms and threadworms): The treatment for each of those groups is specific, and if we mix them all up the bird may well die of the cure... Disappointed

Quote :
Hi Luise,

thank you for writing to me too, you have really read my mind and you have answered my question! I'll go to the Pharmacy tomorrow morning and ask if they have Baytril or Cipro. I only hope that Comis doesn't die suddenly like his poor sister did some days ago... He really needs our prayers! And so does also Romey, the beloved dove of Charis, who is also ill... May they both survive and recover fast!! Poor innocent birds...

If you can't find Baytril (Enrofloxacin) or Ciproflaxin, Bactrim (Trimetoprim+Sulfametoxazol) will also do.

Quote :
Dear Teresa,

I just read your message too! Thank you for explaining to me everything so well! Perhaps little Comis has many diseases at the same time and I don't know if he will be lucky enough to survive but I will try my best to save him and I will follow all your practical advice! There are so many terrible illnesses that our birds can catch, it's a real nightmare for us who love them and are so afraid of losing them... As for Laithi (who died some days ago) and her brother Comis (who is now struggling to survive) they ate normally... The only symptom that Laithi had was that her wings and tail were hanging and toughing the floor, her back was curved...

That indicates abdominal pain, and it's characteristic of bacterial infections. A good antibiotic should do the trick. I hope you got the chance to look at the link I posted. You will see a picture of a pigeon with E-coli in exactly the same pose.

Quote :
...and she couldn't walk properly, she could not even open her wings...

That could be Salmonella, but other diseases can debilitate a bird to that extent.

Quote :
She was in that condition for about one week before she died. However, she was in a good mood, she kept kissing her brother Comis, cleaning her feathers, playing with the straw in her cage and I thought that she only had a genetic defect in her spine... But she suddenly started coughing endlessly and bleeding from her beak...

This has never happened to one of my pigeons. It could be, as Charis suggested, a ruptured canker lesion,as they can bleed very badly, or maybe late-stage tuberculosis, but then she would have lost condition gradually and lost a lot of weight.

Quote :
...and then I understood that she was actually ill and sadly it was too late to save her... In a few hours she died and her little body was lying in a pool of blood... It was terrible... I have never seen a bird dying in that way... I cried very much for her... The poops of Comis are quite slimy / sticky and they consist of dark spaggetti-like pieces and greenish water with a bit of foam...

Maybe Salmonella... That description also fits PMV, but the other symptoms do not.
Have a look at this for a description of Salmonella and the appearance of the poops of adults and babies:
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/treatment-plan/digestivetract-salmonellosis.php

Quote :
He doesn't have diarhoea... But his mother's poops are very loose and all of the same colour and substance, light brown like mud...

That could be Coccidiosis or Hexamitiasis. Especially when they have foam.

Quote :
Sometimes they are bulky and contain a lot of foam, other times they are thin and almost greenish-yellowish and they seem to contain little particles in them as if they contained dust...! I will take photos of them in the morning (here in Italy it is night now and the birds are sleeping) and I'll post them. I also tried to post some photos of Comis in my previous messages but they could not be uploaded, I don't know why... I'll try again later! Concerning Coccidiosi, I had treated the father of Comis with Sulfac, I put some drops in his water... I don't know if it worked or it was just a matter of luck, but my pigeon didn't get the disease, and I was very glad for it! Let's hope little Comis may have some good luck like his father...!
Irene

Let's hope so! But the father may be a carrier, even if he doesn't show the symptoms.

My suggestion: go with an anti-protozoan (Flagyl) and a really good antibiotic (to kill any bacteria like Salmonella, E-coli, etc). Make sure he eats at the very least 100 peas+corn a day (double that would be even better!) and drinks a little water, and keep us posted.

GOOD LUCK! Fingers crossed
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:33 am

Hi to all the kind people who are trying to help me!

Fortunately Comis is still alive this morning, his condition remains stable... I forcefed him wet defrosted peas as Charis suggested me and I put his medicine in one of them. I cut the pill of 250mg Metronidazole into 10 pieces and gave Comis one of them. He swallowed it easily! He seems in good mood! He is moving his head around and is looking at the other birds that are flying in the cages near him... He is trying to get up and reach them. He is crowling on the floor and using his head for assistance. I put him back in his box so that he calms down and stays warm. Now I'm going to the Pharmacy to see if they have Baytril or Cipro as you suggested. If Comis has Coli as well, should I give him any additional medicine or the medicines for Selmonella could also treat Coli? I looked at the link about Selmonella that Teresa sent me and it seems to me that Comis's droppings are exactly the same like those I see in the photos...! It's just that the water around the dark parts of his poops is more greenish than in the photos. Some parts of the water is trasparent with lots of foam and others (those that surround the dark parts more closely) bright green! Thank you for all your suggestions and explanations! I'm reading everything that you write me very carefully and now I understand Comis's situation better! Let's hope he survives! This is the first day he took medicines, let's hope that they will start be effective soon! I will keep you posted!

Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:51 am

Irene, I am very sorry to hear about the sickness of your birds. I cannot add anything because I don't have experience with the symptoms you described - especially the bleeding. But you are in good hands with the advice from Teresa and Charis.
I only can send you my best wishes for your little one and that you will be able to heal him. I know how stressful and frightening it is to see a little bird being in terrible condition.

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:38 am

Irene wrote:
Hi to all the kind people who are trying to help me!

Fortunately Comis is still alive this morning, his condition remains stable... I forcefed him wet defrosted peas as Charis suggested me and I put his medicine in one of them. I cut the pill of 250mg Metronidazole into 10 pieces and gave Comis one of them. He swallowed it easily! He seems in good mood! He is moving his head around and is looking at the other birds that are flying in the cages near him... He is trying to get up and reach them. He is crowling on the floor and using his head for assistance. I put him back in his box so that he calms down and stays warm. Now I'm going to the Pharmacy to see if they have Baytril or Cipro as you suggested. If Comis has Coli as well, should I give him any additional medicine or the medicines for Selmonella could also treat Coli? I looked at the link about Selmonella that Teresa sent me and it seems to me that Comis's droppings are exactly the same like those I see in the photos...! It's just that the water around the dark parts of his poops is more greenish than in the photos. Some parts of the water is trasparent with lots of foam and others (those that surround the dark parts more closely) bright green! Thank you for all your suggestions and explanations! I'm reading everything that you write me very carefully and now I understand Comis's situation better! Let's hope he survives! This is the first day he took medicines, let's hope that they will start be effective soon! I will keep you posted!

Irene

I'm so happy he made it through the night. Hand feeding will help keep his strength up.
Irene...the antibiotic baytril or cipro most often work on E-coli and salmonella unless the particular strain is resistant.
It's also very likely he is ill with more than just one thing but by eliminating one or two, the others, if they are there, will become more obvious.
He does need supplemental heat that is consistent, such as a heating pad and it should be set on the low setting. The problem with other supplemental heat sources, such as hot water bottle, or sock filled with rice and heated, is that the later cool down quickly and the bird cools again.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:02 am

Matilda wrote:
Irene wrote:
Hi to all the kind people who are trying to help me!

Fortunately Comis is still alive this morning, his condition remains stable... I forcefed him wet defrosted peas as Charis suggested me and I put his medicine in one of them. I cut the pill of 250mg Metronidazole into 10 pieces and gave Comis one of them. He swallowed it easily! He seems in good mood! He is moving his head around and is looking at the other birds that are flying in the cages near him... He is trying to get up and reach them. He is crowling on the floor and using his head for assistance. I put him back in his box so that he calms down and stays warm. Now I'm going to the Pharmacy to see if they have Baytril or Cipro as you suggested. If Comis has Coli as well, should I give him any additional medicine or the medicines for Selmonella could also treat Coli? I looked at the link about Selmonella that Teresa sent me and it seems to me that Comis's droppings are exactly the same like those I see in the photos...! It's just that the water around the dark parts of his poops is more greenish than in the photos. Some parts of the water is trasparent with lots of foam and others (those that surround the dark parts more closely) bright green! Thank you for all your suggestions and explanations! I'm reading everything that you write me very carefully and now I understand Comis's situation better! Let's hope he survives! This is the first day he took medicines, let's hope that they will start be effective soon! I will keep you posted!

Irene

I'm so happy he made it through the night. Hand feeding will help keep his strength up.
Irene...the antibiotic baytril or cipro most often work on E-coli and salmonella unless the particular strain is resistant.
It's also very likely he is ill with more than just one thing but by eliminating one or two, the others, if they are there, will become more obvious.
He does need supplemental heat that is consistent, such as a heating pad and it should be set on the low setting. The problem with other supplemental heat sources, such as hot water bottle, or sock filled with rice and heated, is that the later cool down quickly and the bird cools again.

Hello & welcome to the forum. Hi there/Bye

I also use a Ceramic heat emitter, its usually use for reptiles, you can hang it above the container the pigeon is in & adjust the heat by raising and lowering it. The only reason I suggetsed this is because many of the new heating pads will automatically shut off.

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:24 pm

EgypSwiftLady wrote:
Matilda wrote:
Irene wrote:
Hi to all the kind people who are trying to help me!

Fortunately Comis is still alive this morning, his condition remains stable... I forcefed him wet defrosted peas as Charis suggested me and I put his medicine in one of them. I cut the pill of 250mg Metronidazole into 10 pieces and gave Comis one of them. He swallowed it easily! He seems in good mood! He is moving his head around and is looking at the other birds that are flying in the cages near him... He is trying to get up and reach them. He is crowling on the floor and using his head for assistance. I put him back in his box so that he calms down and stays warm. Now I'm going to the Pharmacy to see if they have Baytril or Cipro as you suggested. If Comis has Coli as well, should I give him any additional medicine or the medicines for Selmonella could also treat Coli? I looked at the link about Selmonella that Teresa sent me and it seems to me that Comis's droppings are exactly the same like those I see in the photos...! It's just that the water around the dark parts of his poops is more greenish than in the photos. Some parts of the water is trasparent with lots of foam and others (those that surround the dark parts more closely) bright green! Thank you for all your suggestions and explanations! I'm reading everything that you write me very carefully and now I understand Comis's situation better! Let's hope he survives! This is the first day he took medicines, let's hope that they will start be effective soon! I will keep you posted!

Irene

I'm so happy he made it through the night. Hand feeding will help keep his strength up.
Irene...the antibiotic baytril or cipro most often work on E-coli and salmonella unless the particular strain is resistant.
It's also very likely he is ill with more than just one thing but by eliminating one or two, the others, if they are there, will become more obvious.
He does need supplemental heat that is consistent, such as a heating pad and it should be set on the low setting. The problem with other supplemental heat sources, such as hot water bottle, or sock filled with rice and heated, is that the later cool down quickly and the bird cools again.

Hello & welcome to the forum. Hi there/Bye

I also use a Ceramic heat emitter, its usually use for reptiles, you can hang it above the container the pigeon is in & adjust the heat by raising and lowering it. The only reason I suggetsed this is because many of the new heating pads will automatically shut off.



I use those too, and they work great. I regulate the heat the same way, and keep a thermometer next to the nest so that I can check it regularly.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:34 pm

Dear friends,

thank you so much for your new messages, I'm really moved by your interest and love for little Comis... With your help I feel more determined to do everything I can to save this poor baby... This evening I bought Baytril pills (of 50 mg) and I wanted to ask once again your advice on what would be the right dose for Comis (who weighs 255 gr)... Right now I'm going to forcefeed him again and give him some water to drink... I have been away working all day long but now I'm free and I will dedicate all my time to him. He is very affectionate, he rubs his head on my fingers and closes his eyes when I stroke him, he is such a lovely baby, I wish you could see him! Where can I get a ceramic heat emitter or a heating pad from? Do they sell them in shops for animal accessories or in shops for electical devices? Venice is like a village and I can't find anything useful here... Tomorrow I will be free and I could go out of town to search for a heater... Right now I have Comis in a box filled of straw and kitchen paper near the radiator in the bathroom that is always warm. But if it is necessary I will buy him a more proper heat emitter, as you suggested. Well, I'm going to feed my baby and I will keep my computer on, waiting for your suggestions about how many mg of Baytril I should give him...

Many greetings from me and little Comis,
Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:00 pm

Irene...give the baby 10mg, one time a day for ten days. So you will give the baytril now and the metronidazole 12 hours later.
Do give the pills alone rather than putting in a piece of pea. Mu concern is that the skin of the pea may take longer to break down or may go through the baby's system still in the skin.

Do look for another way to warm the baby that iwarms form the inside out.

http://www.pigeonangels.com/baby-pigeon-illnesses-injuries-and-hand-raising-f16/providing-heat-to-orphaned-pigeons-and-doves-t567.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:40 pm

Irene, I was going to suggest the same thing about giving the pill. It would be more effective by itself.
As far as those heat emitters, they do work well. I have raised babies with them.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:17 pm

Thank you a lot for telling me what is the right dose of Baytril for Comis... I forcefed him about 60 wet deftosted peas (he couldn't eat anymore and started resisting strongly...) and then I cut the pill and gave him a piece of 10mg directly into his throat and he swallowed it. Now I have turned off the light of the bathroom to let him sleep (it's 11.00 pm now here in Italy). In the morning I will feed him again and I will give him his Metronidazole dose. Let's hope that when I turn on the light tomorrow morning he will still be alive! Right now,I'm going to search for a warm bottle in my house, I'll wrap it with kitchen paper and put Comis on it. Tomorrow I will search in the shops to see if I can find a better heater for him... May God protect the cute baby as he sleeps...!

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