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 Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!

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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:53 pm

Matilda wrote:
Irene...[b]don't collect poop while they are on antibiotics because it will mask the bacteria and be a waste of your money. In this case anyway, you would want to do Comis' poop separately since she is sick. Even with hers. it will need to wait a least a week or nothing will show up and you will wast your money and achieve nothing.[/b]

Start with poop and if nothing show, then do blood. In the phone book you can look for an Avian vet or a vet that treats exhotics.


Thought that was a given. You already mentioned that. I just meant that when she did bring them in, that they needed to be fresh, as she had said that she had been collecting them.
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:47 pm

I had collected the poops before I gave any medicines to my birds, but if the poops have to be fresh, then I'll throw the little container away and I will collect new ones some days after the pigeons stop the antibiotics, as you suggested me... The vet who sees Comis deals with exotics but she couldn't help Comis because when she made an analysis of her poop and saliva, she didn't find anything in them... I think she doesn't have much experience with pigeons because Italian people in general hate them and nobody brings the sick ones to the vet... The vet who sees Comis is very kind and well-intentioned but she couldn't understand what was wrong with Comis... Perhaps there are also other vets who deal with birds, but maybe they don't have much experience either... I don't know whom I could trust... I think you know more than them! In fact, I told the vet about you and she was impressed that you know so much about pigeons and she was asking me about you!

Charis, you were right! I just checked Comis' feet and they are cold (although she was standing on her blanket which is warm...)! I took her in my hand and her feet were colder than my hand! She used to be warmer than me! My hands are always cold in the winter, so her temperature has surely changed... What does that mean?

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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:13 pm

Hard to believe that they don't have some sort of heat source there. At the stores where they sell things for dogs and cats, could you call them and see if they have some sort of heat source that would go under a dog bed to keep it warm? Or under a cat bed to keep it warm? Over here they sell water bowls for dogs that you plug in so that the water won't freeze if you keep it outside in a kennel. Even that would be something. You could put towels in it to keep him off the dish. And put him in on the towel. There must be something. Doesn't have to be a heating pad.

Are you sure you have given him the right amount of medicine each day? And that he is getting the whole dose?
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:23 pm

I found this...

http://www.wellango.it/it/Calore/Heating-Pads/Sanitas-SHK-29-Back-Neck-Heating-pad.html

The problem I notice with this one though, is that it automatically shuts off after 90 minutes.
If you can, you need to find something that you can leave on the low setting and won't shut off.
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:40 pm

I asked in two very big stores for animal accessories and they told me that they don't have any heaters for animals and that here in Italy it is impossible to find such things... Tomorrow, I'll go to a huge supermarket outside the town and I'll search for a hot bottle. At least I could use something like that, it's better than nothing... I could also use a lamp but I think the intense light would distrurb Comis...

As for the medicines, I gave her 25ml of Metronidazole every morning for one week and 10ml of Baytril every evening for 10 days (today was the 10th day). This evening I gave her 0,3ml of Nystatin and Charis told me to give her this medicine for 5 more days. From tomorrow on I'll give her only Nystatin...

I feed her around 100 peas a day, a few tiny pieces of boiled carrots and a few pieces of corn. I can't feed her more because she resists a lot... Poor baby, I wish I could do something more for her... I want so much to see her well...! I'm very worried for her...
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:54 pm

Irene...here's another option you may be able to find. Heating for reptiles.

http://www.thepetexpress.co.uk/?p=2_6&gr=Heating&pid=196


If you have the choice of a water bottle or a light over her...the light would be better because it would be constant. They way I check the light is to put my hand on top of the ill bird and hold it there for 3-5 minutes. If it feels too hot to my hand, then it's too hot for the bird and the light needs to be moved higher.


Last edited by Matilda on Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:55 pm

Yes. I know you are worried, and how hard you are trying. I just hope Comis didn't wait too long to be treated. When her sibling was ill, she probably had the same thing, just took longer to show. Often they get something like that from their parents. That would mean that both babies need to be treated, even if one doesn't seem ill. They are usually carrying the same bacteria. Often times all the other birds are too, and need treatment. Better to start right away and not wait. Like I said, I know you are trying very hard. I do hope she gets well soon.

Over here, we also have reptile heaters for people who keep reptiles. They are like hanging a light, only without the light. Just the warmth. Those work pretty well. People over there must have pet reptiles. Do you think they have anything like that?
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:04 pm

Irene...I wish I had wings. I would fly over and help you with all f this.
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:39 pm

I'm sorry Comis isn't as spunky as he was, Irene. Disappointed
Placing a low wattage lamp over him is the best option you have right now.
At least while you are trying to find an alternative heat source. Smile

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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:03 pm

The options of heating for reptiles may just work. There may be something like that available in Italian pet shops.
I checked the British link and they don't ship abroad, but postage for most of the UK is not expensive, which makes it a possibility if there is someone in the UK who could buy it and then post it to Irene. In this case, an adaptor would have to be bought as well, as British plugs have 3 prongs and the European ones have 2.

Meanwhile, I think I read somewhere on this thread that Irene was using a heater to keep the pigeons warm. If it is an oil heated one, that wouldn't be a bad option for now -- more reliable than the hot water bottle.
I've also tried using a foot-warming heating pad, but those get very hot and it's hard to maintain the temperature at the right level.

While doing some research earlier on, I found a mention of symptoms like Laithi's, and they were associated with canker situated near the heart or major blood vessels, so Comis's current treatment sounds perfect:

Quote :
...an internal canker nodule located at the base of the crop or within the glandular stomach (proventriculus). As the nodule increases in size, it squashes the windpipe making breathing difficult and blocking the crop outlet. This interferes with crop emptying, leading to bacterial infection of the crop and secondary starvation and dehydration due to the crop contents not being able to pass into the bird's system. Usually by the time the bird is noticed to be unwell, the condition has passed the point where it will respond to treatment. Deaths often occur due to the nodule growing through the stomach wall, leading to stomach contents leaking into the chest. Alternatively, the nodule can damage the heart or large blood vessels within the chest, causing sudden and severe bleeding. Such birds are often found dead on the floor with blood coming from the mouth.
This extract came from The Australian Pigeon Co.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:10 pm

I was thinking today about buying her a heating pad here and sending it to her. She could buy an adapter but the pad would take so long to get to her. Last time I sent a package to Europe, which was last winter, it took 2 weeks. It's an option though.
The oil filled heaters are great. I use them too, but Comis need a direct heat sorce.
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:36 pm

Hi my wonderful friends,

thank you once again for sharing my worries for Comis and giving me advice. I wanted to reply to you faster but I had problems with my internet connection (fortunately I fixed everything today)! Sadly, people here don't love animals... There are no pet shops in the city, there are only a few outside Venice, in the mainland, but I would need to have a car to get there and I don't even know how to drive... In fact, I had bought my fantail dove from one of those pet shops in the countryside, but I had to change many trains and buses and it was too complicated going there and coming back... I'll check in the yellow pages if there are any pet shops that are closer and I'll call them to see if they have any heaters... When I asked in the shops for animal accessories in Venice (and on the outskirts of Venice) if they had any sort of heaters for animals, they laughed at me as if I had asked for something irrational! They did not even know that such things existed! They were so surprised as if I had asked them for a 'robbot cage cleaner' or something crazy like that...!

Perhaps I could buy a heater from the internet but the problem is that I don't have a credit card... I have a prepaid card but it's empty, I should go to the bank to activate it... Another problem is that the post office services here in Venice are terrible! When people send me things, I rarely receive them! Even the birthday cards get lost! Living here is like living in the Medieval times... So, even if I buy a heater from the internet, it's not sure that I'll receive it... However, I have an idea! There are some heating pads with low temperatures that photographers use for developing photos... Such a heating pad would be ideal for Comis as it is large, flat and very low, and she could easily lie down on it... I could ask in a store for electrical devices and let's see if I have any luck... I might also find a heating pad for keeping food warm (if there is any with a very low temperature...) I'll continue searching...

Meanwhile, I keep Comis in her blanket next to the radiator. Today she looked better again! She had walks on the floor, and she even ate by herself some tiny pieces of wholemeal bread from my hand! This is her favourite food! She had enough appetite and she ate MANY pieces! I was very happy for that!

I attached a stick outside the cage of her parents and I put her there so as to be closer to them. I wanted to cheer her up! Indeed, she became more active as she watched her parents moving in their nest and she started cleaning her feathers and exercising her wings...

I gave her her Nystatin doses in the morning and in the evening and she drank them without resisting too much... Now she is sleeping in her blanket because it's night. Her condition seems to be stable, I hope she doesn't suddenly get worse (now that she is not taking the antibiotics anymore...) but I try to think positively and do my best to help her recover... As long as she is still alive, there is hope...

Teresa, I just read your message! It's really great that you found an article that explains poor Laithi's death! Now we know for sure that it was canker that killed her... I gave antibiotics for canker to Comis for one week, I hope they made her internal lumps disappear...!

Here are some photos of Comis today, early in the morning, on the perch that I attached to the night cages of my pigeons...
(1) Comis near her parents...



(2) Close to her dad Meli who was watching her with curiosity...



(3) She was trying to keep her balance, while her black brother Arapis was cleaning his feathers behind her...






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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:01 pm

Matilda wrote:
I was thinking today about buying her a heating pad here and sending it to her. She could buy an adapter but the pad would take so long to get to her. Last time I sent a package to Europe, which was last winter, it took 2 weeks. It's an option though.
The oil filled heaters are great. I use them too, but Comis need a direct heat sorce.

That's a wonderful thought, Charis, but an adaptor wouldn't work. The voltage in the States is half of ours. It would only work if it is possible to buy a transformer for it, otherwise the appliance would go 'bang'. My daughter's friends have given up trying to bring their hairdriers etc when they travel in Europe because of that.
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:14 pm

Great thinking, Irene, investigating photographic pads and food-warming pads! Great job I hope you find one that works well!
I know what you mean about people's reactions when you ask for something special for an animal... but in time you will come across others who think like you do! And anyway, WE know it's the uncaring people who are ridiculous!

Thanks for posting the photos! I love it/them On that first one, Comis seems to be developing a Fantail-like head. It will be interesting to see how she turns out. I wonder if baby girls will look like their Fantail mum and baby boys will look like their dad...
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:16 pm

Teresa wrote:
Matilda wrote:
I was thinking today about buying her a heating pad here and sending it to her. She could buy an adapter but the pad would take so long to get to her. Last time I sent a package to Europe, which was last winter, it took 2 weeks. It's an option though.
The oil filled heaters are great. I use them too, but Comis need a direct heat sorce.

That's a wonderful thought, Charis, but an adaptor wouldn't work. The voltage in the States is half of ours. It would only work if it is possible to buy a transformer for it, otherwise the appliance would go 'bang'. My daughter's friends have given up trying to bring their hairdriers etc when they travel in Europe because of that.

The travel store here sells adapters, for hair dryers and other small appliances so they can be used when we travel out of the country. That's what I was thinking of.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:18 pm

Irene.. As Cindy suggested....I'd put Comis in a cage with a low watt light over the cage to warm her.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:36 pm

Matilda wrote:
The travel store here sells adapters, for hair dryers and other small appliances so they can be used when we travel out of the country. That's what I was thinking of.

I found some info that says you can use a converter/transformer:

Quote :
Many travelers to Europe have had difficulties with their electronics, because European and American power systems are run differently. Most of the world, including Europe, uses a 220 volt/50 hertz system. A handful of other countries, including the United States, have 110 volt/60 hertz electricity, which is believed to be safer. As a result, appliances in these nations are designed to connect to a specific type of power source, and using American devices in European outlets and vice versa can result in havoc.

Many nations also use different plugs, and a number of plug adapter kits are available for connecting to foreign plugs. However, use of these plugs without a transformer or voltage converter can result in fireworks. The voltage in Europe is twice that of the voltage in the United States, and while many electronics are designed to adapt to voltage changes, it is crucial to check. If the device is not capable of handling 220 volts of electricity, it will fail. In addition, some electrical devices cannot handle the lower 50 hertz cycle found in much of the world, and may experience difficulties.

To see if a voltage converter is needed, look at the informational panel on the back of the electrical device in question. Many manufacturers design equipment with varying voltages in mind, and may list an ability to handle input ranging from 110-240 volts, indicating that it will work in Europe and the United States. In addition, the equipment is usually rated at 50/60 hertz, and will function on either cycle. However, some devices, especially hair dryers, are designed to function at either 110/60 or 220/50. If this is the case, a voltage converter is necessary.

Here's the link: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-electrical-voltage-differences-between-the-us-and-europe.htm

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:08 pm

Charis, thank you so much for trying to think of ways to help me and for wishing you were here with me and Comis... That's so kind of you, I'm really moved...! A big hug for you! In fact, you are already here with me and Comis with your mind and heart and you have already helped us a lot! Unfortunately, as I also said in my previous message, even if you send me a heating pad, I don't know if I will receive it because many of the letters and presents that my parents send me from Greece get lost and I never receive them... Let's see if I can find a heat source here in Venice... If not, then if you like, you can try sending me a heater yourself and I'll send you the money it costs. But first I'll go to the stores of electrical devices here in Venice to try my luck there... let's see what happens...

Teresa, it's true, Comis looks very much like her mum Anemoni, although her tail is not so big... She is the only one who took after her, all the other babies look more like their dad Meli, but not exactly, because they are completely black like crows! Only one hen, Kirki, looks like a feral but she has a larger tail and she is more fluffy. They are all beautiful in their own way, even Meli who is ordinary is extremely cute! In fact, he is the most intelligent of all! He even understands certain words like dogs do! He is very special! All animals are wonderful and intelligent and they can become very tamed and affectionate if people treat them well... As you said, the uncaring people laugh at us, but it doesn't matter... We love our animals and we know their value even if some people don't see it... They are ignorant or blinded by wrong prejudices... Fortunately there are a lot of people who love animals as much as we do, so we are not alone... Universal hug
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:10 pm

Irene, I just read through your thread and your desperate search for heating source. I have none neither but what I did with my very sick pigeons while they were suffering from PMV for months was using hot water bottles.
This is what I did: filled them with really hot water - then wrapped a thick piece of fleece or that kind of stuff that is used in winter jackets around the bottle. The result was that
1. the bottle wasn't too hot for the bird and
2. the warmth was preserved for a longer time.

This means when I placed the bottle into the hospital box late in the evening before I went to sleep it was still a bit warm in the morning - so I could change it again. This really helped a lot.
A bird will not gain any weight if it has to spend all energy on keeping himself warm - therefore it is essential that it does not get cold - you can check this from his feet. The bird needs to have warm feet.
It also helps to put a thick towel on the bottom of the cage and on top of that several layers of newspaper and then some kitchen paper. This way there is no cold coming from the bottom.

I used large storage plastic boxes as a hospital cage - this helps to prevent any draft. Here are some photos:







I fully understand your problems in finding supplies for your pijjies. Sometimes you just need some ideas to work around the problems. I very much hope that you can solve yours and that your little Comis is getting healthy again.

Sending you lots of Universal hug

And please continue to just ignore people who are ignorant and sooooo stupid. They just do not know what they miss...

Irene - I forgot - if you cannot find a water bottle such as the blue one above - any strong plastic bottle will do where you can fill in hot beverages. Check out camping supply stores etc.
Wish you luck Fingers crossed

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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:45 pm

How is Comis today, Irene?
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:02 am

Hi, here I am again to update you about little Comis... although I'm afraid I don't have any good news to tell you... She remains in a stable condition, I don't see any improvement... In fact, it seems to me that her legs have become a little weaker and she is finding it more difficult to walk since she stopped taking the antibiotics... I'm wondering whether I should start giving her antibiotics again... what do you think? Apart from all that, she seems to be in a good mood! She is very affectionate with me and likes very much being cuddled. Sometimes she eats a few seeds from her new plate, but I continue to handfeed her defrosted peas... Yesterday I went to many shops looking for a heating source but I couldn't find anything at all!! Not even hot bottles!! In a few minutes I'll go to another shop to check there as well. If I can't find at least a hot bottle, I'll create one by myself using an empty milk bottle or something similar... I'll fill it with hot water, wrap it in a towel, as 'Pigeonwriter' suggested, and I'll put it next to Comis... 'Pigeonwriter', thank you very much for your practical suggestions and for the photos that you showed me! You really had some great ideas!! I hope your cute pigeons are doing better with your good care! As for my little Comis, I keep her in her blanket next to the radiator... I keep the radiator on all the time just for her! The bathroom (where I have put her) is so hot like a 'sauna'! I hope it will help her feel better...
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:08 am

Irene...let me think about it a couple of hours. In the mean time, could you post a picture of her most recent dropping?
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:49 am

Ok, Charis, take your time! I'm sure you will find the best solution! Here are the latest two poops of Comis. As you can see they are still bright green... The one that is 'spread' it is so because Comis stepped on it... But the other is intact...







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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:14 pm

Irene...the poop may be green because you care feeding her peas. I think you need to feed her more. Maybe 50 peas every time her crop empties.
Is she drinking on her own?
Also...I want you to try and find if there are any pigeon clubs in your area. If so, members may have medicines they can sell you or tell you where you can buy medicines for pigeons.
I think it would be good to treat her for coccidia.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:28 pm

Irene...I found this one page and I have sent to fellow a message to ask him where you can find medications. You can email him too. There is an email address near the bottom of the page.

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/telmatuc/pigeon.html#mauro
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