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 Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!

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Irene
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Posts : 132
Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 43
Location : Venice, Italy

PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:07 am

Hi Teresa,

fortunately August is coming to an end and hopefully I'll be able to find a vet soon! Today I'm very happy because Ikaros seems to have recovered completely!! He stopped coughing and breathing with open beak and he started eating and being lively!! Vefloxa is indeed a very strong and dangerous medicine but in this case it helped Ikaros recover in just one day, it seems like a miracle!! The medicine I use is exclusively for birds, so it is much lighter than the one for humans and I put only 3 drops in 50ml of water for each bird, following the instructions. It is written that I should give it to them for one week, so in a few days they will finish the therapy and then I could give them Flagyl... When Margarita and Selini were ill I gave them Baytril but unfortunately it didn't work... Very sad Another advantage of Vefloxa is that since I can put the medicine in their water, there is no need to catch them and give them pills by force, so they don't get more stressed... The feral pigeons are still afraid of me and they panic every time I try to catch them... If I give them Baytril and Flagyl I will have to catch them twice a day... I could do that with my pet doves that are tamed, but it would not be easy with the feral ones... Another advantage of Vefloxa is that it treats many infections at once and since we don't know what exactly is the problem of my birds it seems to offer them a better protection... for a start... After all, now that I have already started treating them with Vefloxa, I don't know if it would be safe to change their medicine in the middle of the therapy, because their bodies might get confused and have bad reactions or the germs might become resistant to both antibiotics...

However, I really wish I didn't have to give them medicines at all, they are surely toxic and not good for them, but now my poor babies are threatened by this TERRIBLE mysterious illness that is killing them suddenly without any warning signs...! It's the first time I see such a fatal pigeon disease!! As you know, my birds had also got sick in the past, but their condition deteriorated gradually day by day and it was more or less predictable and easy to control, but this time, while they seem completely normal, fine and lively, all of a sudden they become sleepy and in a couple of hours they collapse and die!! This must be a VERY SERIOUS and a HIGHLY INFECTIOUS illness, so it may be good to give them a STRONG antibiotic, just to be on the safe side... The medicine is dangerous by itself, but this disease is far more evil than the medicine...Oh no

As for poor Margarita and Selini who died, I buried their bodies yesterday in two big pots of flowers that I bought especially for them and I filled them with very beautiful fake roses that will never droop, just like my love for them... I wished I had buried Hercules too, but when I found him dead in his cage he was already in a stage of decomposition and I had to throw his body away because I didn't have any available pots to put him in and my boyfriend insisted that I should throw him immediately to avoid that the bacteria spread in the house... So I wrapped him with silver paper, I put him in a bag and took him out... But later on I regretted what I did and I went to search for him in the bin, but the bag was not there anymore, the bin had already been emptied... What a fool I was... I should have kept his body, like I did with Margarita and Selini, I feel so sad for losing him completely... I hope that his soul has gone to a beautiful heavenly place together with Margarita and Selini and all the other innocent birds who have died... Cute Dove May they rest in peace! Very sad
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:47 pm

Irene wrote:
Hi Teresa,

fortunately August is coming to an end and hopefully I'll be able to find a vet soon! Today I'm very happy because Ikaros seems to have recovered completely!! He stopped coughing and breathing with open beak and he started eating and being lively!! Vefloxa is indeed a very strong and dangerous medicine but in this case it helped Ikaros recover in just one day, it seems like a miracle!! The medicine I use is exclusively for birds, so it is much lighter than the one for humans and I put only 3 drops in 50ml of water for each bird, following the instructions. It is written that I should give it to them for one week, so in a few days they will finish the therapy and then I could give them Flagyl... When Margarita and Selini were ill I gave them Baytril but unfortunately it didn't work... Very sad Another advantage of Vefloxa is that since I can put the medicine in their water, there is no need to catch them and give them pills by force, so they don't get more stressed... The feral pigeons are still afraid of me and they panic every time I try to catch them... If I give them Baytril and Flagyl I will have to catch them twice a day... I could do that with my pet doves that are tamed, but it would not be easy with the feral ones... Another advantage of Vefloxa is that it treats many infections at once and since we don't know what exactly is the problem of my birds it seems to offer them a better protection... for a start... After all, now that I have already started treating them with Vefloxa, I don't know if it would be safe to change their medicine in the middle of the therapy, because their bodies might get confused and have bad reactions or the germs might become resistant to both antibiotics...

However, I really wish I didn't have to give them medicines at all, they are surely toxic and not good for them, but now my poor babies are threatened by this TERRIBLE mysterious illness that is killing them suddenly without any warning signs...! It's the first time I see such a fatal pigeon disease!! As you know, my birds had also got sick in the past, but their condition deteriorated gradually day by day and it was more or less predictable and easy to control, but this time, while they seem completely normal, fine and lively, all of a sudden they become sleepy and in a couple of hours they collapse and die!! This must be a VERY SERIOUS and a HIGHLY INFECTIOUS illness, so it may be good to give them a STRONG antibiotic, just to be on the safe side... The medicine is dangerous by itself, but this disease is far more evil than the medicine...Oh no

As for poor Margarita and Selini who died, I buried their bodies yesterday in two big pots of flowers that I bought especially for them and I filled them with very beautiful fake roses that will never droop, just like my love for them... I wished I had buried Hercules too, but when I found him dead in his cage he was already in a stage of decomposition and I had to throw his body away because I didn't have any available pots to put him in and my boyfriend insisted that I should throw him immediately to avoid that the bacteria spread in the house... So I wrapped him with silver paper, I put him in a bag and took him out... But later on I regretted what I did and I went to search for him in the bin, but the bag was not there anymore, the bin had already been emptied... What a fool I was... I should have kept his body, like I did with Margarita and Selini, I feel so sad for losing him completely... I hope that his soul has gone to a beautiful heavenly place together with Margarita and Selini and all the other innocent birds who have died... Cute Dove May they rest in peace! Very sad

Disappointed Disappointed Disappointed Did he die while you were at work, during the hottest hours?

I'm glad Ikaros is doing better, and I hope the others will be alright. I understand your decision to keep them on the same med for the full course, if it works well for them.

I also understand that you wanted to give Margarita and Sellini a proper burial, though I personally wouldn't have -- I would have wanted to take revenge on the cruel death that took them by letting them show the vet how to save the others. But I know it's a hard decision to make, especially compared to how comforting fake flowers are.
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Irene
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Join date : 2010-05-01
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Aug 25, 2011 12:47 am

Teresa,

I don't know when poor Hercules died because I found him already dead... His cage was very high (on top of the others) so I couldn't see what was going on in its base (which has a kind of 'fence' around)... There were 3 birds in that cage and Hercules always liked to stay in a corner of the base, where he had made a nest and where he was hidden from my sight... I changed their food and water twice a day and I stretched my hand to reach their containers, but the cage was so high that I could see only its upper part with the bars and not the lower part which was 'fenced'... I changed their sand once a week and I had to climb on a chair to be able to do it... When Margarita died I wanted to check all my birds one by one and so I took a chair to control the base of Hercules cage because I could not see him perched on the sticks... Then I found him dead in his nest! In the beginning I did not even realize that he was dead, I thought he was lying in his nest as was his custom, but then I saw that he didn't move and that his face had almost turned into a skull, it was terrible!! I was shocked and devastated... He had probably been dead for a week since he was in that stage of decomposition...

As for the bodies of Margarita and Selini, I kept them for one week in plastic bags without burying them because I wanted to take them to a vet for necropsy and although I couldn't find a vet, I kept waiting until I could find one... But Charis told me that I was supposed to keep the birds refrigerated and since I had not done so, I had better bury them by that time... I had not refrigerated them because I thought it was not necessary and also because my boyfriend (who was afraid that the germs might spread in the fridge) didn't allow me to do so...

Fake flowers are not comforting, I just wanted to decorate their tombs as an expression of love for them...

Unfortunately, Vefloxa antibiotic has not worked either...! This morning another bird of mine is sick: Stachtoboota (Cinderella) vomited and started having balance problems and a swollen hanging crop that feels like a cushion filled with air... Ikaros still looks sleepy although he has stopped coughing... I'm searching once again for a vet, let's hope that this time I can find someone who has returned from his holidays... I don't know what to do... This situation is completely out of my hands...
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:22 pm

Irene wrote:
Teresa,

I don't know when poor Hercules died because I found him already dead... His cage was very high (on top of the others) so I couldn't see what was going on in its base (which has a kind of 'fence' around)...

There were 3 birds in that cage and Hercules always liked to stay in a corner of the base, where he had made a nest and where he was hidden from my sight... I changed their food and water twice a day and I stretched my hand to reach their containers, but the cage was so high that I could see only its upper part with the bars and not the lower part which was 'fenced'...
I changed their sand once a week and I had to climb on a chair to be able to do it... When Margarita died I wanted to check all my birds one by one and so I took a chair to control the base of Hercules cage because I could not see him perched on the sticks... Then I found him dead in his nest! In the beginning I did not even realize that he was dead, I thought he was lying in his nest as was his custom, but then I saw that he didn't move and that his face had almost turned into a skull, it was terrible!! I was shocked and devastated... He had probably been dead for a week since he was in that stage of decomposition...

When you say sand, are you talking about grit, Irene? What kind do you use?

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:30 pm

Irene wrote:
He had probably been dead for a week since he was in that stage of decomposition...
Poor Hercules! Is there any chance of placing a little stool or step-ladder near that high cage, to allow you to see in? That's worked well for me, as four of mine are in cages well above eye level, and that makes it possible to check on them every day (and check for eggs too).

Irene wrote:
As for the bodies of Margarita and Selini, I kept them for one week in plastic bags without burying them because I wanted to take them to a vet for necropsy and although I couldn't find a vet, I kept waiting until I could find one... But Charis told me that I was supposed to keep the birds refrigerated and since I had not done so, I had better bury them by that time... I had not refrigerated them because I thought it was not necessary and also because my boyfriend (who was afraid that the germs might spread in the fridge) didn't allow me to do so...
Oh, I see... no, without being refrigerated, they wouldn't be suitable for a necropsy. I can understand your boyfriend's reluctance to have them in the fridge. Not because of germs spreading, that wouldn't have happened if they were well wrapped, but it would be a grizzly thing to find next to the food.
I got round that before by placing the body in a bag, that bag in another bag, and so on, until there were four bags around it, and all that in a tupperware. Far more precautions than were needed, but they made me feel less uncomfortable.


Irene wrote:
Unfortunately, Vefloxa antibiotic has not worked either...! This morning another bird of mine is sick: Stachtoboota (Cinderella) vomited and started having balance problems and a swollen hanging crop that feels like a cushion filled with air... Ikaros still looks sleepy although he has stopped coughing... I'm searching once again for a vet, let's hope that this time I can find someone who has returned from his holidays... I don't know what to do... This situation is completely out of my hands...

Stachtoboota is showing typical symptoms of protozoan infection (canker or similar) and sour crop. She must have a blockage on the far side of the crop. If it's not protozoans, then worms.
One of mine, Halo, started having symptoms like that last night. I gave her all the right meds (Flagyl, antibiotic and Nystatin), together with warmed baby apple dessert, but because of the canker blockage and the diarrhea the meds weren't getting into the intestine to be absorbed. So I rushed her to the vet, where she had her crop pumped, and was immediately rehydrated by injection under the skin, and also had an injectable antibiotic and an abdominal X-ray. She may be well enough to come home tomorrow, but without my vet's help, my sweet little Halo might be dead already. It's scary, the way pigeons manage to hide their symptoms until the last moment.
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:18 am

Cindy, I use a 'sand' of wooden pellets that is especially for birds. It's very absorbent and keeps the cages clean for a longer time... The problem is that after some days it turns into dust, so I have to change it every week, otherwise it starts flying in the air... In the past, I used newspapers but now that I have so many birds they become dirty too fast and the birds also tear them apart... Then I used straw, but when it becomes dirty it stings too much, it becomes moldy very easily and it flies in the air every time the birds move their wings... So far the wooden pellets is the best solution I have found... What do you use?

Teresa, I use a stool for ckecking poor Hercules' cage... After what happened to him, now I ckeck that cage every day to be sure that the other two birds that are there are alright... Hercules stayed together with Dydimos and Myra, and both he and Dydimos were in love with Myra... But she preferred Hercules and Dydimos had remained alone and he was cooing all the time hoping to attract her attention, but in vain... Now that poor Hercules is not here anymore, Dydimos got Myra for himself and he is extremely happy... At least Hercules' death improved his life...

But poor Comis is very lonely since he lost Selini and he has become very quiet... If my birds overcome this terrible illness, I will buy for him a beautiful female dove from that terrible pet-shop (where I had bought Anemoni from) where they keep birds in a dark underground room... In this way the death of Selini could offer a better life to one of those poor neglected birds...

Kyknos (=Swan), the brother of Margarita, also misses his sister and seems anxious, but fortunately he is getting on well with Lignos (=Skinny), with whom they are together in the cage, so he is not so lonely as Comis...

As for Stachtoboota and Ikaros, fortunately they are still alive! I force-feed them and I give them their medicines... I started giving them Flagyl as well, because I suspect like you also do, that they must have a protozoan or worm infection... Ikaros seems to get better and better, while Stachtoboota is still very weak and she can hardly walk... The problem is that she vomits once or twice a day and so I'm not sure if her body absorbs the medicines... I wish there was a good vet here where I could take her, like Teresa did with her sick Halo... Yesterday I managed to find a vet that was open but she said to me: -'Even if you bring your birds here and I examine them, I cannot do anything for them, I cannot tell you what disease they have just by looking at them... You have to bring a dead one to a special Institute in Padua for an autopsy! There is nothing else you can do!' I asked her if Vefloxa antibiotic was good for them and she said that this is the best treatment in their case, since that antibiotic treats many diseases at once... I asked her if I could give them Flagyl at the same time for protozoans and she told me that she had never heard of that medicine and she had not heard of Canker either!! You see how 'competent' and 'helpful' the vets are here...! Oh no At least she told me what was the right dose of Vefloxa for my birds (0,05ml twice a day directly into their beaks). It's not easy for me to deal with 21 birds at the same time, but I'll try to do my best...

The droppings of Stachtoboota (and also of Selini who died) are like lakes of water with tiny dark bits in the centre that look like pepper or seeds of sesame and the dark parts are greenish... What are those 'dots' like pepper, could they be parasites? Does Flagyl deal with them or is it only for Canker? Should I give my birds any other medicines, what would do in my position?
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:53 am

Irene, I'm not sure if I'm visualising what you said about Stachtoboota's droppings correctly -- are there really only two components, liquid (or liquid slime) and tiny dark green bits? The dark green bits are not parasites, as these are too small to be seen with the naked eye, except for worms -- but if you saw a worm, you would know what it was. Any chance of a photo?

Poops should have three components: greenish or brownish solid matter (the faeces themselves, resulting from processing the food), white urates (look like little caps on the poop, and they are a solid form of urine) and a small amount of liquid.
When there are no urates, the bird isn't getting anywhere near enough to drink; when there are very few solid particles, the bird is either not eating, or there's a blockage and the food isn't getting to the intestines; a large percentage of liquid shows the water isn't being reabsorbed by the body, it's a sign of an intestinal infection (but doesn't tell us what the disease is) and leads to severe dehydration.
If you weren't force-feeding her she would probably be dead already, but considering she's been vomitting she may be getting very little, if any, food or meds. Very sad

Flagyl will kill canker, and according to my vet it also works as a coccidiostatic (it doesn't kill coccidia, but it stops them from multiplying), but it doesn't kill worms. Unless you can see worms in their droppings, or worm eggs (these may be just about visible, they are white and look like tiny grains of rice, a fraction of a millimetre in length) I wouldn't try to worm them just now. I think they're too weak for that.

With 10 pigeons (plus other pets) in the house and no proper aviary, I find it very hard work to care for them all and make sure their cages are cleaned every day and they get enough sunshine, exercise and attention. In fact, if I didn't work from home, I don't know if I would be able to cope, especially when one or more of them are ill.
I can't even begin to imagine how you would cope with 21, especially without a vet to help you, and the present crisis certainly shows that you can't. Please, please, please Irene, promise me that you will replace their eggs, don't let any more babies be born for now, otherwise they suffer and you suffer.

I had a look at materials used to line cages, and didn't find a mention of the one you use. So I suppose that 'no news is good news', but please note that the recommendations are to remove the poops and soiled materials daily -- apart from the danger of harbouring bacteria etc, it sounds to me like the dust that comes from the pellets after a while could cause repiratory problems to your pigeons. There's also the question whether the pellets swell with water and could therefore cause fatal blockages if ingested, as happens with corn cob.
I've copied the links for you to have a look at what else is available, and what may be dangerous:

http://www.pigeonangels.com/t1870-cage-liners

http://www.pigeonangels.com/t946-loft-floor-substrate-what-do-you-use
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:40 pm

Dearest Irene…
I’m going to say some things that will seem very harsh to you and may hurt you…but they need to be said. Please listen with your heart and mind to what I am going to tell you and know that I care about you and your pigeons very much. I wouldn't hurt you for the world. If I didn't care, I wouldn't bother to tell you this.

You continue to do the same things over and over and expect everything to turn out alright, when past events of doing things the way you do produce disastrous results. Every time there is an outbreak of illness, you panic and say things are out of your control when you have been in control all along. You say your birds were just fine yesterday while all of us that know birds understand that they couldn't have been just fine yesterday.

You are the creator of what is going on with your birds and you must take responsibility and fix it. You have been given some very sound advice by many of us and I feel you listen only in part. I remember when you had 6 birds. Most, if not all, of what your birds are going through could have been avoided had you taken the advice we gave you.

Last November 16th, I wrote this ….
...I just did the math and if Irene allows each of her pigeon couples to hatch eggs and their babies to hatch eggs...by the end of 12 months...she will have 108 pigeons in her little apartment.


While my calculations didn't add up to 108 pigeons, the problems you are dealing with now are directly related to the number of pigeons in your care. Because of the number of pigeons, you are not able to care for them properly. I suspect they are stressed from, in the least overcrowding. To learn that one pigeon had started to decompose and you didn't notice or smell him is proof. Knowing that, it’s not a stretch to imagine that if you didn't at least smell the poor bird dead, the other pigeons aren't getting clean food and water daily and with so many pigeons in each cage, each cage needs to be cleaned at least daily to keep them from walking in their waste. Mixing couples with single birds is in itself, is very stressful for all the birds in the cage.

I don’t know why it’s difficult for you to swap the eggs with wooden ones and whatever the reason may be…you need to put your reasons in the back of your mind and swap them out.

I can’t say what is currently making your pigeons sick. However, pigeons that are stressed, which I believe your pigeons are, are at a greater risk for having a canker outbreak. Bacteria often accompanies canker … stress can make birds very vulnerable to coccidia and worms. Pigeons always have canker, coccidia and worms in their bodies but keep them in balance unless stressed.

Until your pigeons are through this illness, It’s very important to handle them every day, feel their crop for food, monitor the poop, what it looks like and how much poop there is.

Also…I want to encourage you to find homes for as many pigeons as you can. I understand the thought of it is very painful but I think it would be for the better for you and them. Perhaps Myriam can help you with that. I know there must be other people near you that rescue, rehab and love feral pigeons and if you search, you will find them. The pigeons would benefit greatly from fresh air and an aviary situation where they are not so confined.

Please...please… do not bring anymore birds into this current situation.

Regarding the vet not knowing what canker is…she may know it as Trichononiasis.
This from the Merek Veterinary manuel
Etiology:
The causative organism is Trichomonas gallinae , a flagellated protozoan that lives in the sinuses, mouth, throat, esophagus, and other organs. It is more prevalent among domestic pigeons and wild doves than among domestic fowl, although severe outbreaks have been reported in chickens and turkeys. Some strains of T gallinae cause high mortality in pigeons and doves. Hawks may become diseased after eating infected birds and commonly show liver lesions, with or without throat involvement. Pigeons and doves transmit the infection to their offspring in contaminated pigeon milk. Contaminated water is probably the most important source of infection for chickens and turkeys.





























The disease course is rapid. The first lesions appear as small, yellowish areas on the oral mucosa. They grow rapidly and coalesce to form masses that frequently completely block the esophagus and may prevent the bird from closing its mouth. Much fluid may accumulate in the mouth. There is a watery ocular discharge and, in more advanced stages, exudate about the eyes that may result in blindness. Birds lose weight rapidly, become weak and listless, and sometimes die within 8-10 days. In chronic infections, birds appear healthy, although trichomonads can usually be demonstrated in scrapings from the mucous membranes of the throat. Lesions:
The bird may be riddled with caseous, necrotic foci. The mouth and esophagus contain a mass of necrotic material that may extend into the skull and sometimes through the surrounding tissues of the neck to involve the skin. In the esophagus and crop, the lesions may be yellow, rounded, raised areas, with a central conical caseous spur, often referred to as “yellow buttons.” The crop may be covered by a yellowish, diphtheritic membrane that may extend to the proventriculus. The gizzard and intestine are not involved. Lesions of internal organs are most frequent in the liver; they vary from a few small, yellow areas of necrosis to almost complete replacement of liver tissue by caseous necrotic debris. Adhesions and involvement of other internal organs appear to be contact extensions of the liver lesions.
Diagnosis:
Lesions of T gallinae infection are characteristic but not pathognomonic; those of pox and other infections can be similar. Diagnosis should be confirmed by microscopic examination of a smear of mucus or fluid from the throat to demonstrate the presence of trichomonads. Trichomonads can be cultured easily in various artificial media such as 0.2% Loeffler’s dried blood serum in Ringer’s solution or a 2% solution of pigeon serum in isotonic salt solution. Good growth is obtained at 98.6°F (37°C). Antibiotics may be used to reduce bacterial contamination.
Control:
Because T gallinae infection in pigeons is so readily transmitted from parent to offspring in the normal feeding process, chronically infected birds should be separated from breeding birds. In pigeons, recovery from infection with a less virulent strain of T gallinae appears to provide some protection against subsequent attack by a more virulent strain. Successful treatments include metronidazole (60 mg/kg body wt) and dimetridazole (50 mg/kg body wt, PO; or in the drinking water at 0.05% for 5-6 days


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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:51 pm

I appreciate the clarification on the 'sand', Irene. Thanks

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:07 am

Irene, I understand you've had a horrible week, that you've seen so much that you did with the best of intentions turn into a disaster...
I feel for you, but you have to harden your resolve and take control of this situation, because YOU are all that your pigeons have at the moment, and THEY need all the help they can have. All we can do is advise you from a distance, and advice is only any good when it's followed.

Please consider carefully what Charis has said... and follow that advice. They are wise words, the beginning of a progression that will stop this kind of situation from happening ever again. Remember that it takes a real friend to tell you the truth that you may not want to hear when you're hurting already. Be brave, wipe your tears and be the champion your pigeons need you to be.
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:22 am

Dear friends,

y0u say that I'm resp0nsible f0r the terrible situati0n I'm in and y0u may be right... I guess my pige0ns wh0 died had pr0blems f0r a l0ng time, but the truth is I didn't realize because they didn't sh0w any sympt0ms... I feed them and change their water twice a day, but I didn't n0tice anything strange in their behavi0ur... Their r00m is in fr0nt 0f the kitchen, where I spent m0st 0f my time when I am at h0me and I can watch them fr0m the wind0w all the time! Als0, when I fed them they ate with appetite and they were lively, h0w c0uld I kn0w what was g0ing 0n inside 0f them$ [I use $ instead 0f a questi0nmark and the numbers 0 and 1 instead 0f letters because my cat has ruined the keyb0ard 0f my c0mputer and s0me keys are n0t w0rking well anym0re...]

As f0r my birds, they have n0t increased much in number... I had 8 pet d0ves, the 0nes y0u remember, Meli, Anem0ni and their 6 babies: Halimah and Kirki, Stacht0b00ta and Arapina, C0mis and Selini [wh0 died]. I had als0 rescued 11 feral pige0ns because my neighb0urs wanted t0 p0is0n them, and I br0ught them t0 my new h0use... I wanted t0 let them free but 0ne 0f them was ill with T0x0plasm0sis and s0 I kept them t0 treat them with medicines until they w0uld be healed... But when they were healed I hesitated 0nce again t0 let them free because my cat likes t0 stay 0n the balc0ny m0st 0f the time and I was afraid that if the pige0ns returned she might eat them... I was als0 afraid 0f my neighb0urs in case they saw many pige0ns flying 0ver my balc0ny and c0mplain t0 the 0wner 0f my h0use, like the neighb0urs 0f my previ0us flat wh0 had even called the p0lice and had caused me many tr0ubles... Pe0ple here hate pige0ns, they c0nsider them as 'rats with wings', and if they see s0me0ne feeding them 0r welc0ming them 0n their balc0ny they start c0mplaining...

I feel really s0rry f0r having t0 keep them in cages and I'm p1anning t0 make a huge 'h0use' f0r them and I have started c0llecting the materials... Als0, my b0yfriend is l00king f0r a h0use t0 buy and if we m0ve t0 a new h0use, n0b0dy will be able t0 kick us 0ut anym0re and I will be able t0 let the birds free t0 fly in 0ur garden and d0 whatever they want!

Anyway, 6 new pige0ns were b0rn in my h0use accidentally: 2 by C0mis and Selini [wh0 I th0ught were b0th female and s0 I had n0t rem0ved their eggs], 1 by Meli and Anem0ni [because by mistake I replaced 0nly 0ne 0f their eggs and I f0rg0t the 0ther], 2 by my ferals Ten0r0s and Tiny, and 1 by my ferals Er0s and Dakry [these 3 eggs I had als0 f0rg0t t0 replace with fake 0nes). But when y0u have t0 replace the eggs 0f s0 many birds, it's easy t0 miss 1 0r 2 s0metimes... H0ever I have been very careful since then and n0 m0re birds have been b0rn... The 6 new babies were n0t all b0rn at 0nce but in different m0nths, and 0f these 0nly the 3 survived... S0, in the end, I have 0nly 3 additi0nal birds...

I had put Dydim0s t0gether with Hercules and Mira in the same cage because I th0ught he w0uld be sad if I put him in an0ther cage al0ne... Unf0rtunately the males are m0re than the females and s0 Hercules and Dydim0s had t0 share the same female... All the 0ther cages have 0nly 2 birds each [1 male and 1 female 0r 2 males], 0nly the cage 0f Hercules was 0vercr0wded... but n0w p00r Hercules is n0t there anym0re...

I had als0 th0ught t0 find new h0mes f0r my fera1 pige0ns and I had put an ann0uncement 0n the internet but 0nly 3 pe0ple called me... 0ne had a 'c0llecti0n' 0f birds and treated them like 'stamps'! When I t0ld him that mine were 0rdinary pige0ns and n0t fancy 0nes he l0st his interest... The sec0nd 0ne said that he wanted them but when I talked m0re with him, he c0nfessed t0 me that he killed his pige0ns t0 eat them!!! S0 y0u can imagine what was my reply t0 him...!! The third 0ne lived in a city far away and I w0uld have t0 travel f0r a wh0le day t0 get there which w0uld be very stressful f0r the birds and I did n0t even kn0w where he w0uld put them... I asked him f0r m0re details, but he never replied... It's really difficult t0 find nice caring pe0ple wh0 really l0ve pige0ns and I cann0t entrust these p00r inn0cent birds t0 unkn0wn pe0ple wh0 c0uld even be sadists and harm them...! If y0u kn0w any pe0ple here in Italy wh0 l0ve birds as much as we d0, intr0duce them t0 me, I w0uld be very happy t0 give them s0me 0f my birds f0r ad0pti0n...! I d0n't want t0 be selfish, if s0me0ne c0uld 0ffer them better care than me, I w0uld accept t0 l0se them myself f0r 0ffering them a better life...

As f0r the vet, she had n0t heard either 0f Canker 0r 0f Trich0m0niasis [I had t0ld her b0th names...] H0ever, I'm thinking t0 call the vet I used t0 visit in the past... She is n0t an expert either, but at least she was willing t0 help... She had t0ld me that I c0uld take the dr0ppings 0f my birds t0 her f0r analysis, s0 let's see if she can disc0ver s0mething imp0rtant...

As f0r my birds, I have b0th unpleasant and pleasant news t0 tell y0u... The unpleasant news is that p00r 0rfeas, my disabled pige0n died yesterday m0rning and I was very sad... I had been treating him with Vefl0xa and Flagyl and he seemed fine, s0 I'm n0t sure if he died 0f an illness 0r because 0f his disability pr0blems... The last days he seemed t0 have a l0t 0f pain and he c0uldn't stand still, ath0ugh I had put him 0n a s0ft blanket in a 'd0nut' shape as y0u had suggested... The night bef0re he died he was extremely nerv0us and anxi0us, 0veractive and restless... He kept flapping his wings desperately, he breathed fast with 0pen beak and he l00ked exhausted...! H0wever, when I fed him peas he ate them all and he seemed alright! But the next m0rning I f0und him dead... Very sad

As f0r Stact0b00ta she is still alive but in a terrible c0nditi0n... She is paralyzed and very weak... I keep her 0n the heating pad and I feed her liquid f00d f0r sick birds, it's the 0nly thing she can eat with0ut v0miting... Her cr0p is still sw0llen but a little less than it was in the beginning... I c0ntinue t0 give her Vefl0xa and Flagyl... Her dr0ppings have changed f0rm... N0w they 100k like 1itt1e patches 0f mud mixed with 'sand' in the middle 0f a lake 0f water... They have a terrible smell like that 0f r0tten f00d...

Since I'm talking ab0ut bad smells, the dead b0dy 0f Hercules didn't smell much and I always keep the wind0ws 0pen s0 that's why I c0u1d n0t fee1 the sme11...

The b0tt0m part 0f Stacht0b00ta's b0dy is very dirty with her dr0ppings, d0 y0u think I sh0u1d wash her with with warm water$ I'm afraid that the Trich0m0nas may enter her b0dy again...

The g00d news I wanted t0 te11 y0u is that Ikar0s rec0ved c0mp1ete1y and n0w he can eat and drink by himse1f! I'm very happy f0r him!

An0ther im0rtant thing is that I have pr0bab1y f0und the s0urce 0f the disease...! Yesterday I saw that sparr0ws enter in the cages 0f my birds thr0ugh the bars, eat and drink fr0m their p1ates and even attack[!!] my pige0ns and bite them! Maybe it was them wh0 carried the disease fr0m 0ne cage t0 an0ther...!

Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:01 pm

Stacht0b00ta died peacefu11y this evening... The medicines didn't w0rk at a11... I had f0und a vet wh0 had accepted t0 see her and she had given me an app0intment f0r t0m0rr0w aftern00n but unf0rtunate1y Stacht0b00ta c0u1dn't make it... she was t00 weak... H0wever t0m0rr0w I wi11 take the dr0ppings 0f Stacht0b00ta t0 the vet f0r an examinati0n and 1et's see what c0mes 0ut... I wi11 a1s0 take her b0dy f0r an aut0psy t0gether with that 0f 0rpheas, which I put in the refrigerat0r [with0ut te11ing my b0yfriend wh0 w0u1d be very angry if he knew...]. I wrapped the b0dies with si1ver paper and many p1astic bags t0 make sure that the germs d0n't spread in the fridge... 1et's h0pe I can fina11y find what is this terrib1e disease...
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:25 pm

Hi Irene,

I'm so sorry that little Orfeas didn't make it! Very sad I hope he is now flying high, free from all pain and disabilities. It's good to know that Ikaros, on the other hand, has improved and seems much better.

Is there any change in Stachtoboota? Her symptoms are exactly like my Halo's, except for the smell of the poops. In Halo's case, she's got canker, a bacterial infection and a yeast infection. Stachtoboota almost certainly has canker and a yeast infection, and from the smell you described, Salmonella is a possibility, either on its own or compounded by another infectious agent.
When they get like this it's incredibly difficult to fight the disease. Apart from medicating and keeping them going as best we can, all we can do is pray and hope for the best.
If she is on a heating pad, with no chance to feel cold, it shouldn't be a problem to gently bathe her soiled vent feathers to make her feel more comfortable. There's no point worrying about trichomonas entering her body, because it never left. Most serious cases of canker, when they progressed very quickly or went undiagnosed for any reason, are extremely difficult to eradicate, it can take 14 days, if it works at all.

Thank you for considering carefully all the points that were put to you, and for having tried to find other homes for your pigeons so that they wouldn't be so crowded. The replies you got were extremely disappointing, but I hope you keep trying and I hope with all my heart that you may find a decent person who would want some of them for all the right reasons.

Almost every single case of rescues I brought home and who died within a couple of days (or a lot less) had severe canker, which in turn had led to terrible secondary infections. Canker is, without a doubt, the worst, most merciless killer of pigeons that I know.
And the problem is that birds don't usually get it from the air, or even from sharing food or water containers. This would only happen if a very, very ill bird was eating and drinking from them -- and we both know that such a very, very ill bird would be unable to eat or drink. That also rules out the sparrows as transmitters, as no seriously ill sparrow would be able to get into your pigeons' cages, let alone fight for the food. And healthy sparrows couldn't transmit the disease.

We can have two pigeons sharing a living space, food and water containers, and yet one gets canker and the other doesn't; or both get it, but one reacts quickly and gets well, and the other is very ill. Why? Because the disease was already inside some of them, transmitted by the exchage of saliva, when they were fed as babies, by parents already infected with the disease. Or else transmitted between mates, again by the exchange of saliva.

Most rescues came into the world with a serious disease ticking inside them like a time bomb, manifesting itself at the first situation of stress: when moulting, mating, raising babies, living in overcrowded conditions, etc. They need watching constantly, and even then some of them have such weakened immune systems that when the disease strikes they can't fight it.
You will find that this is the situation with your pigeons. Even those who seem healthy are, very likely, carriers. And if they're allowed to breed, they will infect their mates and their babies. And they will also become overcrowded, which is the most common reason for the 'bomb' to go off.

That's why it's really, really important to remove the eggs from now on, all of them. Now that it is established that your pigeons have sick babies, especially since you said half of all the babies died, the greatest gift of love you can give them is to be extra vigilant and make sure that no more sick babies come into the world to suffer and die before long. That should also reduce the stress factors on the parents, hopefully.

Some battles are desperate, but there's some hope. In my case, out of all my rescues who survived beyond the first week, I've only ever lost one at a later date. So I can only recommend what I was told to do, and which I followed: watch them closely, give them the best of care, and never, never let them breed. I hope you can get some wooden eggs, as that would make it much easier for you to distinguish them from any newly-laid eggs. If you can't let us know and we'll get some links for you.

I hope this crisis passes soon, and better, happier times are round the corner.

________________________________________________________________________________

PS. I was just going to post this when I saw your reply. Poor Stachtoboota! I was really afraid that might happen, the way you described her being so weak and ill... Very sad Very sad

Thank you for taking the decision to have necropsies done to find out what was wrong. It's so heartbreaking to lose them after giving them what should be the right medication! There may be no flowers for them, but you won't forget them, and neither will we. Their role now is, like guardian angels, to help save other innocent lives, and they will be forever special for that.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:12 am

I am so sorry to hear that Orfeas and Stachtoboota have passed away, Irene. Very sad
Please let us know what the vet's findings are following the necropsy.


pigeon 1 Orfeas and Stachtoboota pigeon 1
May you join wings as you fly over the Rainbow Bridge
where you can forever fly high and fly free

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Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:33 pm

Dear Teresa, thank y0u f0r y0ur 10ng message, y0ur g00d advice, and f0r sharing y0ur experiences with sick pige0ns with us. Dear Cindy, thank y0u f0r y0ur sympathy f0r p00r 0rfeas and Stacht0b00ta and y0ur kind w0rds...

T0day I went t0 visit that avian vet that came back fr0m her h01idays and I br0ught her the 1ast dr0ppings 0f Stacht0b00ta f0r an examinati0n, she wi11 te11 me the resu1ts t0m0rr0w. It was rea11y difficu1t t0 get t0 her p1ace... I t00k a bus and I trave11ed f0r 2 h0urs t0 get there and 2 h0urs t0 c0me back... It was s0 h0t in the bus that I g0t a headache... But the vet was very kind t0 me! When I exp1ained my situati0n t0 her, she t01d me that I c0u1d bring the b0dies 0f 0rfeas and Stacht0b00ta t0 her and that she w0u1d take them by her car t0 that Institute in Padua f0r an aut0psy [because it's t00 far away and I c0u1dn't get there as I d0n't have a car...] S0 t0m0rr0w I'11 bring her the b0dies and I'm very gratefu1 t0 her... She t01d me that she wi11 examine 0rfeas herse1f and bring Stacht0b00ta t0 the Institute f0r a m0re detai1ed aut0psy. Unf0rtunate1y it wi11 take 2 weeks t0 get the resu1ts...

She t01d me that my birds pr0bab1y g0t the disease fr0m the wi1d birds that entered their r00m, which were pr0bab1y carriers 0f germs 0r parasites even if they were hea1thy themse1ves... I suspected the same thing because the 1ast days there were a 10t 0f birds c0ming in their r00m because I a1ways 1eft the wind0ws 0pen and they came in t0 eat the seeds that fe11 fr0m the cages... There are s0me sparr0ws and tw0 pige0ns that c0me in everyday, I fe1t s0rry f0r them and 1et them in t0 eat, but with0ut kn0wing I br0ught a disease t0 my birds...!! My b0yfriend kept te11ing me t0 put a net at the wind0w t0 prevent the wi1d birds fr0m c0ming in but I didn't take him seri0us1y because I c0u1dn't imagine what w0u1d happen... N0w I pay f0r my mistakes...

...And the nightmare is n0t finished yet... This is 0n1y the beginning!! C0mis and my fera1 pige0n Deda10s have bec0me i11 t00 and I a1s0 n0ticed that the 10wer membrane 0f Anem0ni's right eye is very sw011en and reddish and she has 10st her appetite... What is that$ C0u1d it be 0rnith0sis$ I am ab0ut t0 break d0wn t00, I can't take anym0re... This situati0n is getting w0rse and w0rse... I'm PETRIFIED, I can't describe h0w I fee1 these days... W0rds are n0t en0ugh... I can't eat, can't s1eep, can't breath we11, I'm agitated a11 the time 1ike a s01dier in war wh0 is hearing the b0mbs fa11ing a11 ar0und him and d0esn't kn0w where the next 0ne wi11 fa11... I 10ve these birds as if they were my babies and I see them dying the 0ne after the 0ther and I am unab1e t0 he1p them... it's just terrib1e...!!T 0day I caught Anem0ni t0 give her F1agy1 and defr0sted peas and Me1i, her c0mpani0n, started c00ing desperate1y and trying t0 get 0ut 0f the cage t0 f0110w her, he c0u1d n0t stay with0ut her even f0r a few minutes... I imagine what wi11 be his reacti0n if she dies and he never sees her again... These tw0 are s0 attached, they have been t0gether f0r years, if death separates them it wi11 be a great tragedy and I fee1 s0 s0rry f0r them... I keep thinking 'N0, n0, n0... n0t them!!!!! P1ease, n0t them!!!! They have t0 be t0gether, they must 1ive!!!' Me1i and Anem0ni were my first pige0ns, I'm very attached t0 them, I can't bear 10sing them... C0mis is a1s0 very specia1, y0u kn0w his 10ng st0ry and h0w many messages we had exchanged f0r saving him... As f0r Deda10s, he is a very shy inn0cent bird, he stayed with Ikar0s in the same cage... In fact, the sparr0ws used t0 enter their cage m0re 0ften than the the 0ther 0nes... S0 it's n0t a surprise that b0th birds g0t sick...

S0meb0dy must have put a curse 0n me...!! There is n0thing w0rse in the w0r1d than 10sing the 0nes we 10ve... I rea11y h0pe the vet may say s0mething he1pfu1 t0 me t0m0rr0w and the aut0psy 0f 0rfeas and Stacht0buta may thr0w s0me 1ight t0 this mysteri0us dark situati0n...!

Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:46 pm

I'm so sorry to hear this, Irene! Very sad Very sad Very sad My heart breaks to think of all those poor little souls so ill!

I hope it may be possible to see the cause on the droppings you took in, and that your vet will be able to help them!

Fingers crossed Circle of Love
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:52 pm

He110,

here I am again, I've just seen the avian vet and the news are n0t g00d at a11! The ana1ysis 0f the dr0ppings 0f p00r Stacht0b00ta wh0 died sh0wed that my birds d0 N0T have any parasites, w0rms 0r pr0t0z0a... S0 they d0 n0t actua11y suffer fr0m Canker... It's s0mething much w0rse...! The vet be1ieves it's 'Newcast1e Disease Virus NDV', a hig1y c0ntagi0us fata1 disease with 100% m0rta1ity rate, which is a f0rm 0f Paramyx0virus... Very sad T0day I handed in the b0dies 0f p00r 0rfeas and Stacht0b00ta f0r an aut0psy and I wi11 kn0w the resu1ts in ab0ut 10 days, which wi11 pr0bab1y c0nfirm what the vet suspects... Unf0rtunate1y this disease is incurab1e and fata1 and there is n0thing I can d0 t0 save my birds... There is n0 medicine and n0 therapy... There is n0 h0pe f0r them... Very sad They are d00med t0 die and I'm devasted and shattered inside... N0w it's Anem0ni's turn... Her eye1id and part 0f her neck is sw011en and reddish and she has started fee1ing s1eepy and 10sing her appetite... Me1i her c0mpani0n is sure1y infected t00 because they were a1ways kissing and exchanging infected sa1iva... C0mis, wh0 was the c0mpani0n 0f Se1ini is a1s0 infected, he a1ready 100ks miserab1e and t00 quiet... This is a rea1 nightmare...! I wish s0meb0dy c0u1d wake me up...! I cann0t be1ieve this is happening t0 my babies!!! Very sad The vet said that the disease was certain1y br0ught by a wi1d bird... I never imagined that wi1d birds were s0 danger0us...! If I c0u1d 0n1y imagine, I w0u1d have kept the wind0ws c10sed a11 the time...! My p00r babies were s0 un1ucky... But I'11 take care 0f them and sh0w them my 10ve unti1 the end... P1ease take care 0f y0ur 0wn birds, vaccinate them against this terrib1e disease and never 1et wi1d birds appr0ach them...

Here is a usefu1 1ink ab0ut Newcast1e Disease that I f0und:

http://www.avianbiotech.com/Diseases/Newcastle.htm

S0me weeks ag0, when everything was fine, I had a strange dream at night... I saw that the cages 0f my birds were 0pened by themse1ves and my babies f1ew away and disappeared in the sky... I fe1t s0 sad f0r 10sing them... but I knew that they were happy t0 be free... When I w0ke up I was w0ndering what that dream meant, n0w I kn0w...

Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:55 pm

Irene, I don't really have enough time now to respond properly, but your explanation for what happened to your birds doesn't make any sense to me.

Pigeons don't get Newcastle disease as such (notice your link was to a parrot site), but they can catch some varieties of PMV -- whose symptoms don't even begin to match what your pigeons had. I'm not talking out of thin air, I have two survivors, and there was a third who died, but not because of the PMV, but because of gapeworms and gizzard worms.

In most cases, PMV sufferers don't die of the disease, they die of thirst and hunger, because they cannot drink or feed themselves as a direct result of the disease. You said prior to looking ill your pigeons were eating and drinking just fine, and the two things don't match.

Here's a much better link to PMV in Pigeons:
http://www.pigeonangels.com/t1175-pmv-by-dvm-gordon-chalmer

And this is a pigeon with PMV:



If this is a new strain of the virus, then obviously we will need to be very careful. But it's most likely a guess based on the fact that the droppings were too old for the pathogens to be identified.

I am really sorry that your birds are all so unwell, and I hope that the necropsies will give you the answers you need.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:55 pm

Oh Irene...I do agree with Teresa. The sypmptoms your birds are having don't match up at all to PMV and I don't know how the test could have come back so quickly.

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:11 am

Dear Teresa and Charis,

I rea11y wish with a11 my heart that y0u were right!!!! I'm s0 w0rried that I can't st0p crying f0r my p00r pige0ns... Sad1y, yesterday I n0ticed that C0mis [wh0 was with Se1ini wh0 died] manifested sympt0ms that are typica1 0f Paramyx0virus: He made spastic m0vements, he threw his head back when he tried t0 eat fr0m my hand, he had difficu1ty picking up seeds and he has a1s0 bec0me aggressive!! The 1ast tw0 days he tries t0 attack my hand when I give him bread t0 eat, s0mething that he never did bef0re... He has a1s0 10st his appetite... M0st 0f the time he stays in a c0rner and 100ks very m00dy... Kirki [wh0 was with Stacht0b00ta wh0 died] has a1s0 started making spastic m0vements and having difficu1ty picking up seeds... Anem0ni's right 10wer eye 1id is sti11 sw011en and reddish, and a1th0ugh her behavi0ur seems 'n0rma1', she is eating much 1ess...

Yesterday, I br0ught t0 the vet the dr0ppings 0f m0re birds f0r an0ther ana1ysis, I'11 ca11 them 1ater t0 see if they have anything new t0 te11 me... D0 y0u think I sh0u1d vaccinate the birds that d0 n0t sh0w signs 0f i11ness yet$ Sha11 I take them t0 the vet t0day f0r an emergency vaccinati0n, if she accepts t0 see me$

I have c10sed a11 the wind0ws 0f my birds' r00m t0 prevent the wi1d birds c0ming in and I have 0pened the d00r 0f the kitchen s0 that air enters fr0m the 0ther side 0f their r00m... T0day I'm g0ing t0 buy a net t0 put at the wind0ws...

Thank y0u s0 much f0r the 1inks and vide0 that y0u send me, they are very imp0rtant!

I a1s0 wanted t0 ask y0u if there is anything I c0u1d give my birds t0 strengthen their immune systems... and what sha11 I d0 with the medicines$ The c0urse 0f antibi0tics is finished and I st0pped giving them Vef10xa 2 days ag0... I had started giving F1agy1 t0 Anem0ni and Me1i, as we11 as C0mis, but perhaps it is use1ess, sha11 I c0ntinue treating them f0r Canker$ I asked the vet and she t01d that whatever medicines I give them are use1ess, what d0 y0u think$

Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:55 am

Your head must be spinning with all the information and worry, just at a time when you need to make important decisions...

First of all, I think your vet scared you into thinking 'PMV' and you are looking for the symptoms when you observe your birds. I'm saying this because the symptoms you described for Sellini and Stachtoboota are different from the ones their mates are showing now.

There are many ways in which pigeons can have difficulty picking up seeds:

- Beak malformation (but I don't think this is the case here).

- Lack of appetite, caused by antibiotics.

- General debility, when the pigeon feels too weak, has difficulty with some movements, and just wants to stay in a quiet corner and do nothing.

- Inability to digest the food, which is most commonly associated with a bacterial infection in the gastro-intestinal tract. Salmonella is ofen the culprit, but there are other possibilities.

- slow crop / crop stasis is when the food spends too long in the crop, or stops there and doesn't come out, and this is caused by an obstruction -- there's an obstacle, like a plug, that doesn't let it pass. The usual causes for this are either canker or a severe case of worms.
This one is the most serious, as the bird is effectively starving and dehydrating, and vomiting is a typical symptom -- the food has to come up because it can't go down. If there is an obstruction on the aesophagus it can press on the trachea and the bird has difficulty breathing and may suffocate. Additional symptoms: the pigeon makes swallowing movements to try to dislodge the blockage, and may stretch his neck like a penguin. There may be missing feathers and reddened skin on his neck and face.

- Seizures are like fits, the pigeon tosses his head to the sides uncontrollably, as in an epileptic fit, and when he tries to eat, the seeds go flying in every direction, in great quantities.
There are three possible causes for this: PMV, Salmonella and worms in the brain.


Considering what you told us about the symptoms, I would go on using Flagyl plus an antibiotic. And knowing what I know now about how dangerous worms can be, I'd have the vet give them an Ivermectin injection (this won't work for all worms, but it's a start).

I totally disagree with your vet saying that the pigeons have PMV and meds won't do anything:

1) For a start, the virus has to be identified before diagnosing PMV for sure, which can be done initially by examination of viral lesions on a dead bird and/or culturing the virus, which takes several days.

2) To my mind the symptoms don't match.

3) Meds are important, because what kills pigeons, including those who may have PMV, are bacteria and parasites. Most pigeon diseases/injuries lead to an internal imbalance that triggers an outbreak of parasites -- protozoans (like Trichomonas, Hexamita or Ballantidium) and any worms (or worm eggs he may have ingested) multiply out of control. Even if the crop doesn't become blocked, the wounds they cause in the intestines and internal organs become sites for secondary bacterial infection, the worst of which, at least in Europe, is caused by Streptococcus, which causes symptoms like pneumonia. Once that takes hold, any pigeon who is not being medicated with adequate antibiotics, is as good as dead.

This is what happened to my poor Velvet. There was no cure for the gizzard worms, and my vet and I didn't know at the time he had gapeworms -- but if we had, we didn't know then that injectable Ivermectin might work for that. I wish that someone had told me then what I've just told you.
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Sep 02, 2011 2:30 am

Teresa,

thank y0u s0 much f0r y0ur enc0uraging message, and f0r a11 the exp1anati0ns y0u gave me... It's true that I'm very c0nfused as my birds manifest different sympt0ms and I cann0t understand what is their pr0b1em... The vet suspects Newcast1e disease but n0thing is sure yet, we have t0 wait f0r the resu1ts 0f the aut0psy... Here is a summary 0f the sympt0ms that my birds have sh0wn during the 1ast weeks:

Ju1y 2011: 1itt1e Evrithiki [b0rn disab1ed and with a very retarded gr0wth, 1ike her br0ther 0rfeas] dies a11 0f a sudden after 1eaving her 0utside 0n the ba1c0ny f0r 5 minutes. Sympt0ms bef0re death: rest1essness, nerv0usness.

13 0r 14 August: Hercu1es dies in his cage. Sympt0ms bef0re death: n0thing n0ticeab1e.

17 August: Margarita dies. Sympt0ms bef0re death: Sudden c011apse and para1ysis [In the m0rning she seemed fine, in the evening she was f0und fa11en 0n the f100r 0f her cage, in c0mma], breathing with 0pen beak, bright green diarrhea.

19 August: Se1ini dies. Sympt0ms bef0re death: Sudden s1eepiness, swa110wing m0vements, v0miting immediate1y after being fed, very sw011en cr0p, breathing fast with 0pen beak, start1ed expressi0n and eye ba11s turned sideways, rapid deteri0rati0n [she died in a few h0urs], gradua1 para1ysis and stiffness 0f the 1egs and the 10wer part 0f the b0dy, watery dr0ppings with tiny greenish partic1es in the midd1e.

21 August: Ikar0s bec0mes i11. Sympt0ms: sudden c0ntinua1 c0ugh and wheezing n0ises, 10ss 0f appetite, s1eepiness and staying sti11, bright green dr0ppings. Ikar0s was treated with Vef10xa antibi0tic and F1agy1 and was hand fed defr0sted peas and he seems t0 have rec0vered c0mp1ete1y, he has st0pped c0ughing, he has started eating and m0ving again, but he is sti11 making wheezing n0ises if I catch him and he bec0mes agitated...

22 August: Kirki [the sister 0f Stacht0b00ta wh0 is in the same cage as her] makes swa110wing m0vements and seems as if she is g0ing t0 v0mit... But she sti11 100ks fine and the next days she d0esn't sh0w any sympt0ms anym0re.

23 August: C0mis [the c0mpani0n 0f Se1ini] seems unwe11. S1eepiness, staying sti11 in a c0rner, 10ss 0f appetite, aggressiveness, increased thirst, watery dr0ppings. Treatment with F1agy1 has increased his appetite.

28 August: 0rfeas [the disab1ed br0ther 0f Evridiki] is f0und dead. Symp0ms bef0re death: rest1ness, nerv0usness, hyperactivity, breathing fast with 0pen beak and seeming exhausted, increased thirst, 0ccasi0na11y inc1ining his head 0n the b1anket sideways, c0nstant f1apping 0f wings and desperate m0vements as if he was in pain 0r disc0mf0rt.

29 August: Stacht0b00ta dies after being i11 f0r a week. Sympt0ms bef0re death [simi1ar t0 th0se 0f Se1ini): sudden s1eepiness, swa110wing m0vements, sudden 10ss 0f appetite, v0miting after being fed, watery dr0ppings with tiny greenish partic1es in the midd1e that 1ater changed f0rm and became greenish diarrhea that 100ked 1ike mud mixed with 'sand' and had a terrib1e sme11 1ike that 0f r0tten f00d, gradua1 para1ysis and stiffness 0f the 1egs unti1 the wh01e b0dy became para1yzed and stiff, rapid breathing [but 0n1y the 1ast day].

31 August: Anem0ni bec0mes i11. Sudden swe11ing 0f her right 10wer eye1id, s1eepiness, reduced appetite... Treated with F1agy1, her c0nditi0n starts t0 impr0ve and her appetite starts t0 increase...

1 September: C0mis manifests nerv0us pr0b1ems: dis0rientati0n, g0ing t0 the wr0ng directi0n when he tries t0 f1y t0 the she1ves and fa11ing d0wn, trem0rs and spastic m0vements 0f the head whi1e he is 1ying d0wn, thr0wing back his head when he tries t0 eat bread fr0m my hand. H0wever, he seems m0re 1ive1y and active than bef0re.

1 September: Kirki s0metimes turns her head sideways sudden1y, but apart fr0m that she 100ks fine and her appetite is n0rma1.

After the death 0f Se1ini, a11 the 0ther birds were being treated with Vef10xa antibi0tic but they became i11 despite the treatment and th0se wh0 died did n0t resp0nd either t0 antibi0tics 0r t0 F1agy1...

I asked the vet if she c0u1d vaccinate my birds f0r PMV and w0rms but she said that we sh0u1d first wait t0 receive the resu1ts 0f the aut0psy... I'm s0 s0rry f0r what happened t0 y0ur p00r Ve1vet, it's s0 sad t0 10se 0ur be10ved pets 1ike this, may her s0u1 rest in peace t0gether with my 0wn 10st babies...

Here are s0me ph0t0s 0f p00r Margarita, Se1ini and Stacht0b00ta bef0re they died, and their dr0ppings, s0 y0u can have have a better image 0f the situati0n...

P00r Margarita in c0mma:


Her dr0pping:


Her 1ast dr0pping as a wh01e:


Se1ini when she started fee1ing unwe11 and I put her 0n the heating pad:


Ha1f an h0ur 1ater she started breathing fast with 0pen beak and her eyes turned sideways. Her cr0p was sw011en:


Her b0dy started started bec0ming para1yzed, stiff and hard, starting fr0m the 1egs:


Se1ini's dr0pping seemed 1ike a 1ake 0f water with tiny greenish partic1es in the midd1e:


Her 1ast dr0ppings, the m0ment bef0re she died, seemed a 1itt1e bu1kier:


Sick Stacht0b00ta s0me h0urs bef0re she died. She was c0mp1ete1y para1yzed but she 100ked peacefu1:


The 1ast dr0ppings 0f Stacht0b00ta. Bef0re that, her dr0ppings were very watery with tiny partic1es in them, 1ike the first dr0pping 0f Se1ini that I p0sted:


P00r babies, I fee1 s0 sad even t0 100k at their ph0t0s... I miss them s0 much... Very sad





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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:05 am

I will be the first to admit, I am not familiar with a lot of the pigeon illnesses as I very rarely get a sick pigeon in nor have my birds been sick so I can sooo appreciate all the help, research and posting that you have done to help Irene, Teresa. Thank You Universal hug Pigeon angel

Irene,
I can only imagine how painful it was for you to post the diary of your birds symptoms and the photos. Very sad Bless your heart.
On a positive note, all the information provided in such detail may be of great assistance to what has happened and hopefully be prevented in the future.

Universal hug

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Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Irene
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Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 43
Location : Venice, Italy

PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:33 am

Dear Cindy,

thank y0u f0r y0ur message. I h0pe th0se wh0 read my messages and see the ph0t0s 0f my p00r birds wi11 be carefu1 n0t t0 1et any wi1d birds appr0ach their 0wn birds as it can have such devastating effects... F0rtunate1y the 1ast days the situati0n is stab1e in my h0use... N0 m0re birds have died, Anem0ni's eye1id that was sw011en became n0rma1 again and she started behaving n0rma11y 1ike bef0re! C0mis is sti11 i11, sh0wing a11 the sympt0ms 0f PMV... His head makes unc0ntr011ab1e m0vements, his eyes have the expressi0n 0f s0me0ne wh0 has bec0me mad, he can't wa1k straight and he has difficu1ty in picking up seeds, but I feed him myse1f defr0sted peas, c0rn, cream f0r sick birds and I give him mu1tivitamins as we11. He genera11y seems in a g00d m00d and he tries t0 act as if he is 'n0rma1', he even tries t0 attack my hand when I put it in his cage and he starts c00ing in 0rder t0 pr0tect his territ0ry... Ha1imah [the 01der sister 0f Stacht0b00ta wh0 died] has sudden1y bec0me aggressive t0wards Kirki [her twin sister] and chases her ar0und, I d0n't kn0w why... Ha1imah and Kirki were c0mpani0ns but when Stacht0b00ta died, Arapina [her c0mpani0n] became the c0mpani0n 0f Kirki and Ha1imah 10st her attenti0n... N0w he hates her ex c0mpani0n and is nasty t0 her... Maybe she fee1s betrayed and jea10us... But c0u1d birds have c0mp1icated fee1ings 1ike humans 0r is her aggressiveness a sign 0f i11ness...?! C0mis seems t0 have bec0me c0mp1ete1y mad and Ha1imah wh0 used t0 be very shy and quiet has sudden1y bec0me 'arr0gant' and 'nasty'... This terrib1e disease seems t0 affect even their behavi0ur...! I'm sti11 waiting t0 receive the resu1ts 0f the aut0psy t0 kn0w if it is indeed Newcast1e disease as the vet thinks... I h0pe she is wr0ng and it is s0mething 1ess seri0us but with a11 these strange sympt0ms that my birds are sh0wing I d0n't kn0w what t0 think anym0re...

Irene
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:56 am

Placing a single bird with a mated pair causes disruption, stress and conflict. This has already been mentioned in this thread very recently, and I am sorry you chose to disregard it.

Surely you know that as a rule pigeons mate for life. How would you feel if some Barbie came to live with you and your boyfriend? And what would happen if your boyfriend preferred her?
Your birds aren't going mad: they DO have feelings.
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