Our rescue-pet pigeon "Paloma" may be egg bound again...help!!!

Hi everyone!

I need to ask for prayers for my rescue pet dove, "Paloma" (I tried to post some pictures below...I hope they show-up). We have been taking her to get depo-lupron shots every three months, to keep her from laying eggs, ever since she almost died a year ago from egg-binding and she had to have major surgery ($400.00+!!!) to remove a broken egg inside of her.

Well, I was going to take her for her next shot this week but a few days ago I noticed her sitting with her rump feathers puffed and her tail down, so I had the vet examine her and, sure enough, he felt an egg inside her! Now I'm really concerned because she's been posturing like that for several days already and the vet said it should only take two days to lay an egg so she should have laid it by now.

Other than the posturing, she is alert and healthy, so we're keeping a close eye on her and giving her warm baths, but if she hasn't laid the egg in the next couple of days we will take her back into the vet. We will do whatever we need to save her life, should it come to that, but I'm really hoping she won't need another major procedure to remove the egg!

The vet gave her a depo-provera shot to keep her from producing a second egg and to keep her from laying eggs for a longer period of time, he said maybe even up to a year (does anyone have experience with those injections who could verify this?). But what kind of upset me was that they didn't offer that option last time! Now I guess I waited a little to long and we're faced with this problem again...Arrrrrgh! I'm seriously considering a hysterectomy for her so we won't have to worry about this all the time. And these interventions to keep her from dying of egg-binding are ending-up costing more than a hysterectomy! Has anyone out there had a pigeon undergo a hysterectomy? Do their personalities change or anything? I'd appreciate any feedback on that issue as well.

So please keep her in your thoughts and prayers, and I'll keep you all posted on her progress.

Thanks for your support!

Janice

P.S. It looks like my pictures didn't post. Can anyone tell me how to post pictures in these forums? Thanks!

Hi Janice,

I'm so sorry I didn't reply yesterday, but I've been working overtime and unwell, so that last night I just fell asleep after dinner, for almost 11 hours...

I'm so sorry you're having problems with Paloma trying to lay eggs again, and that the vet didn't offer you other options before.
None of my hens have ever had hormone injections, so I had heard of the lupron but not the provera. I was surprised to hear that the lupron didn't stop Paloma from laying another egg. We have two members who had hens treated with it, so I'll pass the message on to them and invite them to comment.

Hysterectomy is the only route for my hen Halo. She is at the moment recovering from a near-death situation, and the vet said she will be operated as soon as she's strong enough. I'll be able to tell you how it goes and whether there are any major changes in her because of the operation.

Meanwhile, I will certainly keep you and Paloma in my thoughts and prayers. You are doing everything right by her, and the only thing I might add would be an antibiotic. But as I said, I will try to get you a better informed opinion on this.

The forum server has been operating several changes, most of which are quite irritating. One of them is waiting for members to post a certainnumber of times before allowing them to post pictures. Please email the photos to me at sunndach@hotmail.com and I will post them here.

Much love to you and Paloma!

There are some pictures of Paloma here:
http://www.pigeonangels.com/t2944-seriously-injured-pigeon-in-tucson-az

Janice, now that you got to meet Dr. Funk, it might not be a bad idea to phone and ask his opinion about Paloma...

Reply from our member Angel:

Angel wrote:

When my dove had this, my vet gave her a prostaglandin injection into the vent to stimulate contractions and a calcium injection. I took her home and put her on the heating pad and a moist washcloth on top of it. It took about 6 hours to eliminate the darn egg...

Thanks, Teresa, for your input. We've been giving her warm baths and all day yesterday I was putting hot towels under her cage bottom to give her steam baths, but still no change. So we will take her into the vet today before things get life-threatening. Maybe they can give her those hormone shot you mentioned that will stimulate her to lay the egg. It looks like she's not even trying. I haven't seen her straining or anything. I guess I should buy some antibiotic just to have around the house "in case".

By the way, I wanted to let you guys all know that I had a talk with the vet here at Valley Animal Hospital in Tucson AZ regarding their refusal to treat the seriously injured feral pigeon we found a couple of weeks ago. He was nice, very attentive and apologetic and couldn't believe we were told that by the staff there that they wouldn't treat it. He said it must have been a misunderstanding and that they probably thought I wanted them to treat it for free. He said they wouldn't treat a feral pigeon for free but if someone is willing to take financial responsibility and pay for the services they most certainly would treat ANY animal or bird that is brought in (although, I can't believe that, in my desperation, I wouldn't have said "...even if we pay for it"... but maybe, in my haste I failed to say that, I don't remember). So I wanted to pass that along to the members here from Tucson. I don't remember the name of the vet but will post it after our visit today.

I'll post our progress with this situation later,

Janice

P.S. Thanks so much for posting that link to the pictures of Paloma on that other thread!

You're very welcome, Janice!

The other member that I said I would contact tells me that she emailed you. She's Charis (known as Matilda here) and she's VERY experienced and knowledgeable about pigeons. Let yourself be guided by her and you'll be in very good hands!
She also thinks taking Paloma to the vet today, before things get worse, is the best idea.

She also mentioned this link as being very useful for this kind of problem:
http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww69eiv.htm


PS. Thank you for the update on the vet and the policy towards pigeons!

OK, we just got back from the vet, who said the egg needed to be removed surgically right away. So we left her there for that procedure. They will call us later to let us know the outcome. I have to say, she was looking pretty good...alert, preening, and even ate some seeds on the bottom of the cage while we were there, so I hope the fact that we didn't wait till she was REALLY sick will help her pull through the surgery (they said avian anesthesia is always very risky).

Ya know what's ironic... the vet who examined her tonight, and will be doing the procedure, said she used to be in 4H club when she was a teen and, one of the things she did as a member of that club was .... raising show pigeons! Well, they say "nothing happens by accident" so perhaps God sent us just the right vet to take care of our little girl! And she agreed to do it at "non-emergency hours" rates, since the other vet did tell us to "come back in two days"

Gosh, I feel like we're out of our mind, spending so much again on her, but what other choice do we have? She's a member of our family now. In fact, when we got home I felt like something was missing! I guess when we decide to take on responsibility for another life, regardless of how humble a creature, we are assuming a major financial responsibility as well. Oh well, just call us...

Janice, God bless you for taking such great care of Paloma!

I'm delighted to hear she's in good hands, and will have the egg safely removed before she starts feeling really unwell. Just as Charis recommended -- she knows her stuff!
How perfect that you got a vet who is experienced with pigeons -- there aren't many about, so Someone up there is looking after you two! Please let us have the name and contact of this vet, so that we can recommend her if someone else in the area needs one.
Did the vet say anything about a possible hysterectomy?

Paloma will be in my thoughts and prayers. Sending very best wishes for the safe return of your beautiful girl!

Janice...it's very good you took her to the vet when you did. You see, birds pretend to feel well even when they are sick. They do so as a defence against predators, because a sick acting bird is an easy target.By the time a bird is acting sick...the bird is most often very ill and no longer able to pretend.

Hoping for good news...

Hi!

Well, no news yet. The animal hospital staff told us the vet hasn't done the procedure yet because she is still "incredibly stable" and they've had a busy night with more critical emergency cases. While we were a little peeved, I told them we'll trust their judgement, although I emphasized that we don't want her to decline to the point where it will be harder for her to pull through the surgery. They assured us that they're keeping a close eye on her and will probably do it tonight.

And, Teresa, yes we have talked with the vet about a possible hysterectomy at some point in the near future. While I am a bit nervous about it since they all warn that it's a "very delicate surgery", I really think it may be the only long-term solution (both for her health AND our pocket-book!) I only hope that it wouldn't adversely affect her personality.

So, we're still waiting

Thank you for the update, Janice!

I would have been frustrated too if the vet had delayed the operation because the patient seemed quite well. Good for you telling them you don't want to wait because of the risks!

I'd asked about the hysterectomy because I was wondering if they couldn't perhaps do both things at the same time, removing the egg and doing the hysterectomy, to avoid having two separate surgeries with all their inherent risks.

But don't worry about the anaesthesia. Several of my birds had it, not only pigeons but a teeny weeny swift, and they were all fine!

Oh boy... I may have to take back what I said about this vet being an appropriate place to take our pigeons! Are you ready for this? Now, after telling me on Thursday to go home and wait two days, then telling us today that they didn't do anything last night because they were "too busy, and she looked fine"...Now they're telling us they've discovered she has TWO eggs (one cracked) and that it's going to require MAJOR surgery to resolve this...IF they can even do so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm REALLY afraid of what they're going to say next...if you know what I mean!

I am livid!!!! And I want to scream at them but I know it would only make matters worse!

I can't help but wonder if they're neglecting her because she's "just a pigeon"!!!!! I think we're going to pull her out of there and take her up to Mesa tomorrow instead to see Dr. Funk. I just don't trust this place anymore. And I definitely am going to ask Dr. Funk if they could do a hysterectomy on her to resolve this problem at the same time. Perhaps if they know they don't have to "save" the reproductive organs it would make the egg removal easier I only hope it's not too late

I am crying as I write this, I'm just so upset and feel like you guys are the only ones who understand! Thanks for being there.

Janice

OK, I'm quite a bit calmer now. We just called the animal hospital and asked to speak to the head vet, but they weren't available so we talked to the head technician on duty. After expressing how upset we were over the apparent lack of action on their part, she explained what has actually been happening. She said it's not that they're postponing treatment and doing "nothing" but rather, they've been trying the most conservative treatments first as surgery is very hard on birds and they were hoping she might still be able to pass the egg herself. So this morning they gave her a shot of Oxytocin to stimulate her to lay the egg but it didn't work so they're going to try another one tonight.

She said they did try to get the egg out through the vent but one of the eggs is too large and very calcified (hard) and they were unable to puncture it to drain it. So if this second shot of oxytocin doesn't work, they will give us a call tomorrow and let us know how much the surgery will come to.

Also I just spoke with Charis who pretty much talked me out of the hysterectomy idea, at least not to rush into it as a solution to this problem, because it is VERY risky. But she did give me an excellent alternative: to get a prescription for Depo-Lupron from the vet and just give her the shots ourselves! I never thought of that! My husband knows how to give injections so we can certainly do that.

Also, I do want to add that, after the extended conversation we had with the head tech I feel pretty sure that they really DO care about ALL species of animals; that they ARE really trying and that they're NOT giving her substandard treatment because she's "just a pigeon".

So I'll let you all know more tomorrow.

What a trying time you've been having, Janice! But I'm glad you were able to get answers for your questions about the vet's actions and that your mind was somewhat put at rest.

I'm glad you spoke to Charis too. She's amazing with giving advice on pigeons, even when she's up to her neck in rescues... which is all the time! There's a word of warning in there for me too, about the risks of hysterectomy, and I think I'll need to speak to her before giving my vet the go-ahead to operate on my hen.
Your husband knowing how to give injections could indeed be the perfect solution! But I have a niggly worry, didn't you say Paloma has been on the Devo-lupron all along and still produced these eggs, or did she miss some shots?

I'll be thinking about you and Paloma, wishing for the best possible outcome.

Well we opted to go with just the egg removal and forgo the hysterectomy at this time. And I finally have some GOOD NEWS to report! The vet just called and reported that they have surgically removed the eggs and she is in recovery, doing fine! In fact, they said they've saved one of the eggs to show us because it's very large and very hard. They said one of the eggs was actually forming around the other ...go figure!

Of course, now I'm second-guessing my decision to forgo the hysterectomy because it would have been only a couple hundred dollars more at this time, but if we do it later it would be about $700.00+. Charis had advised us, if we opted for a hysterectomy, to make sure the vet has done them before. They said yes, in fact they said (and this kind of bothered me) that they trained by practicing on ferel pigeons from the wildlife rehabilitation center!!! But, my mind was so fried this morning from stressing out that when they called for our approval, I couldn't even think. But they wanted an answer right then because they were prepping to do the surgery in 20 minutes. I guess, in the end, something "in my gut" was telling me that to have her undergo the both things at once may be just enough extra physiological trauma to jeopardize her chances of a making it through the surgery and full recovery.

Teresa, one of the problems for us was that they never gave us a definite schedule for the Lupron shots. Initially we were told "every four months" but then later that year they said "every month", then "every three months", then "well, it really depends". One time they even told me "when you see her doing nesting behaviors, bring her in"... but I suspected that by the time she's doing "nesting behaviors" it's probably too late!. So I was really confused about when she needed to get the shot.

Even this time, they were vague when I asked how long the depo-provera shot would last. They said "Oh, it should last a whole season" and when I asked what that meant, they just said "maybe up to a year". Well, that doesn't really tell me anything. I'm sorry, but when we're faced with $500.00 surgeries and major suffering for her we can't afford to be "just a little too late". And that's what happened this time. I thought she had gotten her last shot in June, when it was actually the end of May, so it was maybe two weeks over the four month time frame. My bad! Probably if we had gone every three months without fail it would have worked well.

One thing I've definitely decided to do is to buy some kind of small soft-sided "travel" case/cage for her as it would be so much easier than fumbling with the larger metal cage I've been using to transport her. That way, I can just take her along with me on a shopping trip or other errand and just drop by the vet to get her the shot rather than having to plan a whole special trip just for that.

Once again, I'm grateful for all the help and support I get from the Pigeon Angels! Even though sometimes we may get differing opinions, without the "collective knowledge" we'd be totally ignorant of what to do. In fact, back in the 80's I had a beloved female cockatiel that died in my arms of egg binding! I remember I was sobbing and apologizing to her because it was at night, the vet clinics were closed, and I had no idea what to do. Yes, I had taken her to the vet for a previous egg-binding incident (actually the founder of the clinic where we're going to now) and he removed the egg and gave her a Lupron shot, but NOBODY told me it had to be repeated routinely (and there was no internet back then)! Of course, I blamed myself. But, we live and learn and can only do the best we know how at the time. And I can only hope that I will see her again one day (I not only believe that EVERY creature is highly valued and beloved by their creator, but I am also one who believes animals go to heaven!). That's why I love your website so much!

"In that day I will also make a covenant for them With the beasts of the field, The birds of the sky, And the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, And will make them lie down in safety" (Hosea 2:18).

So, a big to all of you!

Janice

Janice - I am very glad that this sounds like a happy ending!!! Sending healing thoughts for a quick recovery of your lovely Paloma

Thank you for the good news, Janice, I'm so glad to hear she's doing well!

I think many vets are not sure of the timing of hormone shots, and of course if they don't know how would you??? Charis will know though, she's been there often enough.

I can relate to the terrible feeling of powerlessness when a little life ebbs away in your arms and you can't stop it happening. And I totally agree with you when you say all creatures are valued by their creator and must be entitled to a place in heaven too. It would be unthinkable to imagine that He, who is perfect love, would not love the innocent!

Thank you for your kind words about the forum. It's members like you who make it what it is!
Have a blessed night!

Well, Paloma is now home and doing fine! I wish I could say as much for my wallet! WOW...I wasn't expecting the final bill they gave me!!! A combination of my fried brain and a miscommunication... when I asked "how much it would be" I wanted to know the approximate TOTAL bill at the end, so when she gave me an estimate, I thought that's what she was quoting, but it was actually just the doctor's charges for the surgery and didn't include all the other charges for keeping her there for several days, all the preliminary tests and procedures, X-rays and meds etc. Oh well, truth be told, I probably would have STILL approved it, even if they had quoted the higher amount because: 1) we love her and I couldn't just let her die; 2) we don't have children so our pets are our "family" and; 3) I guess we really are just CRAZY!!!

Moral of this story? 1) Be DILIGENT and PUNCTUAL with those Lupron shots and; 2) When you ask the clinic for an "estimate" be sure to specify you want an estimate of the GRANDE TOTAL to avoid "sticker-shock".

Oh, and they also showed us the egg they removed and it was about 2 inches long...almost like a chicken egg!!! And that big egg was forming around another smaller one. The tech said, in all her 16 years of being a vet tech, she's never seen anything like it! Poor Paloma, she must have been mighty uncomfortable!!! But the great news is that she's back home again and hopefully we won't let this happen ever again! We might still decide to have her spayed at some point but first we have to recover (emotionally AND financially) from this episode!

And, once again... for your support and advice!!!

Paloma is back home and doing well!!!
There's nothing like a happy ending!

I'm sorry to hear you've had a frightful bill, but I can so understand why you didn't flinch for long... your beautiful girl is back home, and good as new, and I bet the way your heart feels when you look at her now is something that money can't buy!

I have NEVER seen an egg the size you mentioned, or formed around another one. Who would have imagined that horror was brewing up inside her, and Paloma acting so normal until she had the surgery...
It never ceases to amaze me how enduring and strong pigeons can be, but it is frightening to think how well they hide it when they're really not well at all!

Your advice for anyone caught in a similar situation is very pertinent. But I can't help grinning imagining you in future taking Paloma to the vet's and saying, "Lupron shot. Now. Or else."