Advice on European Community Law, please

Teresa - you are a true hero for me
A woman with cojones and in her heart.

Just like to add a big WELL DONE to Theresa.

I wonder if I can tag onto this thread in case anyone may already have some info that can help me with a situation I came across just on holiday.

We were in Spain, Costa Del Sol. We flew from Malaga airport and whilst on the way back to catch our flight, my husband keyed the wrong destination into the Sat Nav.
It took us into the city and stopped us right outside a very large building. While John re-programmed our route I looked up at the building and to my horror saw some pigeons roosting at the top of an alcove where there was netting. Unfortunately there were at least two dead birds hanging and I'm ashamed to say, I shut my eyes as I couldn't bear to look further as I knew there was nothing I could do as we were already late for our flight.

We got home on the 18th August and I then found I had an urgent issue with my local white flock, so have been tied up with that since.
Nevertheless I keep thinking about this Malaga problem and had decided to write a letter today to try and establish if they are covered by any laws or rules regarding the use and maintenance of netting.
I've investigated and found the building in question is Malaga Cathedral.
It maybe I can only send a letter and hope at least they will look into it on the basis that it will cause distress to tourists seeing birds trapped in such a way.
I know we have the same problems at home and can call out the emergency services, but obviously I can do nothing from here.

Having found this thread I did start to wonder if European Law could be quoted in this instance, but reading through this it sounds as if the fact it's Pigeons that are affected, I may not get far with it.

Am I right in thinking there we have a member in Spain, if so if there's any info that can help me in putting a letter together, I'd appreciate it. ( probably a few lessons in Spanish !!).

Thanks

Janet

Hi Janet,
I am so sorry for the disturbing scene you witnessed while on holiday.

I just don't understand the thinking of some people. To trap any animal, leaving them for dead, knowing full well they are going to suffer is about as inhumane as it gets.

Yes, we do have a member from Spain, Lapalomatriste (AKA Myriam).
I'm not sure about being able to tag threads. Will check into that.
However, what I can do in the meantime is make this thread a sticky and that way it will be at the top of the list for easy access.

Please keep us posted on how things go with your correspondence.

Hi Cindy,

Don't worry about the tagging thing, sorry it was my silly wording.
I just wanted to check it was ok for me to bring up my query in Teresa's thread or whether I should open a new one. As it related to European Laws some of the info might have been useful to me aswell, so I didn't want to duplicate things in another thread.

This holiday had more pigeon problems and it did take the shine off things somewhat. The apartment complex had pigeons that visited and were roosting around it. Unfortunately this apartment belongs to our next door neighbours so I had to be careful not to 'ruffle any feathers'.

I made myself promise not to start feeding them and for them to get reliant on me for such a short time so when my neighbour visited, which he does often, he wouldn't find a flock sitting on his terrace.

The upsetting part was that every evening and man came round with a bird of prey and let it fly to scare the birds off. I used to shut myself away with my Ipod on so I couldn't hear anything and prayed hard that I wouldn't find any injured birds as a result. Some holiday.

Hopefully it was a scare tactic as the hawk had bells attached to it's leg and they would hear it coming.
This one I can do nothing about, but just hope that's all they do.

Janet

Hi Janet,

I'm sorry to hear of the distressing sights you saw on holiday. Holiday destination countries do not, as a rule, have much consideration for wildlife, and when it comes to pigeons, things get even worse. It never seems to cross their mind that visitors may be upset at such sights, and it is always a good idea to speak up.

I would target the Bishop of Malaga, if I were you! The Cathedral is his 'roost', after all! And don't worry about the language -- the higher clergy are highly educated people, he'll get it, lol! Invoke the Holy Ghost, whose image is a white dove, which should be soaring over the cathedral as a message of eternal hope and faith to the believers... and instead, the faithful are greeted by a sight of carnage and gore, God's own chosen bird, mutilated and lifeless in the House of the Lord, the poorest of reflections on the Church and the message of Jesus!
Lay it on thick! They may just get embarrassed enough to act...

Good idea Teresa.
Janet...you didn't happen to take a picture did you?

I've been following the various links (Thanks again, Charlie's Pigeon Angels!) and:

E-mailed Birdlife International headquarters, asking for advice, and complaining about the automated replies from their Portuguese branch, who are no longer on holiday but still incommunicado.

E-mailed PETA Europe for information and advice.

E-mailed PICAS UK for advice on SAFE and effective means to manage and control our pigeon population. Their site gives a wealth of information on OvoControl-P, the 'pigeon pill' used in the States, and demonstrate how unpractical it is, and I would very much like to hear what they say about hormone-based products like Avisteril. This is the only one that's licenced in Portugal, but there isn't a shred of information available to the public. Knowing how the pest control companies can massage the truth to the point of making a poison sound like a deterrent, I need to know more before someone uses it here. I know they're already using it in Coimbra, the district capital, but I doubt if anybody is making a serious study about it.

Oh, before I forget...

FOR THE ATTENTION OF RESCUERS IN THE STATES:
It has been demonstrated that OvoControl P eradicates a pigeon's natural immunity to Coccidiosis, because its active principle, Nicarbazin, is a Cocci medication. PICAS say that in some areas whole flocks died suddenly when hit by an outbreak of Coccidiosis to the extent of constituting a public health hazard.

In the course of yesterday's conversation with the Municipal Vet (who IS a horse vet, and whose surgery only has one avian vet that I posted about on PT ) he outlined his proposal to the Town Hall for pigeon population control:

First, capture as many park pigeons as possible and move them to a Municipal Loft to be built on the outskirts of town, next to the Municipal kennel. ( Next door to where they euthanise the strays.)
Then a sample population of those birds would be examined to see what diseases they carried so the flock could be treated. (Yeah, right! )
Then they would be put on the pill to control their numbers.
Then they would create a public feeding area. (Well out of reach of the town.)

Am I seeing things or is this guy just out to make a buck? Yeah, sure, let's do fecal floats for 100 birds, nice little earner for a vet's surgery...

When he got to 'what diseases they carry' I said I could give them a good idea. "Things change during the course of the year, but at the moment, Trichomoniasis and Salmonella." His jaw dropped. He asked if I had done fecal floats, to which he got the longest string of outward symptoms of both (thank you, my friends!) that he never wanted to hear. It was plain to see he was clueless.

Teresa,
you made a good point. Animal welfare does not stop at one's own door. Many things I have learned from you guys in the short time I have been here in the forum, many things I will keep an eye on in future and take action if necessary.

There are many ideas that can be shared. Ideas which may lead to success: saving another little creature from the violence of human ignorance.

From now on, when I am cycling through the city on the hunt for new photo motifs, I surely will have an open eye for our little fellow creatures too, much more than before. I think it's best to start in the neighbourhood - looking for things which could do harm. I know now better what can be dangerous.

This I have learned from you.

Teresa wrote:

Oh, before I forget...

FOR THE ATTENTION OF RESCUERS IN THE STATES:
It has been demonstrated that OvoControl P eradicates a pigeon's natural immunity to Coccidiosis, because its active principle, Nicarbazin, is a Cocci medication. PICAS say that in some areas whole flocks died suddenly when hit by an outbreak of Coccidiosis to the extent of constituting a public health hazard.

Teresa, i totally forgot to answer you on this one. This is one of the reasons why it is not permitted to use in Germany. Also it actually does NOT reduce population numbers on long term. I have to check whether I can find a few more articles I came across.

And btw - this was the comment I wrote in April this year when they brought up the subject of OvoControl for the first time!:

Quote :

I am not an expert on veterinary issues but I wonder why Nicarbazin is not approved for use in Germany. I also wonder why most manufacturers of Nicarbazin are located in China...
Use of chemical substances to control populations of a certain species have always proven to be of show short lived success. The aftermath is often worse than the original situation.
To implement habitats for natural predators such as the peregrine falcon have shown much more success in the long range!

April 28, 2009 11:43 AM

Teresa wrote:

When he got to 'what diseases they carry' I said I could give them a good idea. "Things change during the course of the year, but at the moment, Trichomoniasis and Salmonella." His jaw dropped. He asked if I had done fecal floats, to which he got the longest string of outward symptoms of both (thank you, my friends!) that he never wanted to hear. It was plain to see he was clueless.

Teresa - if it weren't so sad I would have laughed loudly. But this does not amaze me at all. I mean it is understandable that "normal" people do not know much about pigeon diseases, one has to get used to the media distributing a whole lot of because no-one takes time to do proper research but that a "professional" is that dumb - is really shocking!

pigeonwriter wrote:

Teresa wrote:

Oh, before I forget...

FOR THE ATTENTION OF RESCUERS IN THE STATES:
It has been demonstrated that OvoControl P eradicates a pigeon's natural immunity to Coccidiosis, because its active principle, Nicarbazin, is a Cocci medication. PICAS say that in some areas whole flocks died suddenly when hit by an outbreak of Coccidiosis to the extent of constituting a public health hazard.

Teresa, i totally forgot to answer you on this one. This is one of the reasons why it is not permitted to use in Germany. Also it actually does NOT reduce population numbers on long term. I have to check whether I can find a few more articles I cam across.

The link to PICAS UK that Cindy provided was a Godsend! The P in PICAS stands for Pigeon, so they really are specialists. I would advise everybody to take a look.
That's where I got the info on Coccidiosis deaths, and they have the full list of the reasons why it was not licenced in the UK, including the fact that they're harmful to human eyes. PICAS ask, justifiably, 'What about pigeons' eyes?' Also, it has to be administered 365 days per year to be effective.

Teresa, I have just added the comment I already wrote in April to my last answer on your post regarding OvoControl.

Well, I got automated replies from PETA Europe and from PICAS (although, in all fairness, the second did provide a telephone number for dire emergencies)...

... BUT Birdlife International immediately contacted their European and Portuguese directors. The Portuguese director still didn't reply to me, but I got a copy of his e-mail to headquarters and I replied to that...

Here's the story:

Subject: hormone-based products for pigeon population control‏
From: Beverley Childs (Beverley.Childs@birdlife.org)
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 1:42:15 PM

Hi guys,
Do you by any chance have any information regarding this request? I have also copied, Angelo (our Regional Director for Europe) and Luis (Director, SPEA) for their advice.
Many thanks
Bev

Re: hormone-based products for pigeon population control‏
From: Luís Costa (luis.costa@spea.pt)
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 1:58:12 PM

Hi Bev,
thanks for the info. I know that some municipalities in Portugal are using hormones for controlling the populations of feral pigeons, however I don't know anything about the effects of these products. To be honest I don't even know what kind of products are being used and what should be the best ones. If you have some furheter informations about this or any action for SPEA please teel me.
Best wishes
Luís

And this is the one I sent him:

RE: hormone-based products for pigeon population control‏
From: Teresa
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 4:56:14 PM

Dear Luis,

With the help of international pigeon forums, I have been able to find info on OvoControl P, the progesterone-based product that has been licenced in the States. In spite of the manufacturers' claims, this product has not been licenced in the UK because it has to be administered every day of the year, it is harmful to human eyes (and therefore it must be so to pigeons' eyes too), handlers must wear protective clothing, and, considering that the active principle, Nicarbazin, is a medication used for the control of Coccidiosis, it eradicates the birds' natural immunity to the disease. In some areas, entire flocks died suddenly when hit by an outbreak of the disease and constituted a public health hazard.

Here's the link: http://www.picasuk.com/deterrents_anti_roosting_products.html#lnk9

About Portugal: I had a look at the list of veterinary approved products in Portugal, and apparently the only one licenced for pigeon population control is Avisteril, a progesterone-based compound. It is being used in Coimbra (acta nº 31 de 09/09/2002), but I don't know how successfully.

Guimarães prefers a more bloodthirsty approach. They say that Avisteril didn't work, but the fact that they started treating the pigeons AFTER the Spring breeding season can't have helped!

I have also managed to speak to our Municipal Vet, who says he presented a proposal to the Town Hall, but they're dragging their heels because of the cost. He did say, however, that withholding water from an entire bird population is inhumane and does NOT constitute a means of population control.

Pigeons get a very rough ride. They are no longer pets, and most of them were never indigenous wild birds. This means they fall through the nets of all the measures created to protect birds. If they are a nuisance of our own making, they should be protected and humanely managed. Is this too much to ask?

Yours sincerely,

Teresa.

pigeonwriter wrote:

Teresa, I have just added the comment I already wrote in April to my last answer on your post regarding OvoControl.

Oh yes, the reply in the pigeon blog! I saw it yesterday, it was in another link here, posted by Charis. I spotted the name and wondered if that was you! Janet did mention the use of birds of prey with bells tied to their legs to frighten pigeons away -- and I hope that's all they did, frighten -- but you may have seen meanwhile that even racing pigeons CAN be caught by hawks, which dive much faster than pigeons can fly, and the reality of such an attack is something that I don't even want to think about!

Teresa - I don'T want to either. At least it would be more humane than any human invention to kill the birds - isn't this grotesque?

Hi and many thanks for the input. Teresa that is a great angle to take regarding the Bishop, I will start putting a letter together tonight.

Charis, stupid me, I didn't think to get a picture. To be honest at the time I found it hard to even look up again. As we were on a deadline to catch a plane I wasn't really thinking what I could do, it was just when I got back and it was still on my mind, that I decided to act.

Will let you know what, if anything I get from it.

Teresa, you're making amazing progress and starting to get some people thinking now. Quite inspirational. It helps so much to have as much info as you can when fighting these people.
Let's hope the vet calls on you for advice now, rather than the other way round before pushing his proposals forward.

PICAS site is a wealth of info. Thanks to them and their section on the law relating to our Wildlife and Countryside Act here in the UK, I've been able to get a building opened up again that my local flock have lived in for years. It will be only a temporary measure as it is due to be demolished at some time, but nevertheless it can still be used in the meantime. I found it invaluable in my argument being able to quote references to the law at the security company that boarded the site up while I was away.
Their only solution was to block the birds in and cull, saying that they were considered pests. With some info on the law behind me, and verbal advice from PICAS, they had to reconsider, knowing local people were watching I said. (Well there was me and one other lady).

Janet

Janet -

I am so lucky to know all of you couragious and caring people

I think we are quite an amazing group of humans!

Oh well done, Janet!

WIN SOME, LOSE SOME :|

The good news is that I no longer have to carry water to the park, as the drinking fountain has been repaired and the water containers can now be filled there.

The not-so-good news was the reply from Luis, director of SPEA (Birdlife Portugal). He said that they don't deal with pigeons and I should contact animal rights organisations. It was obvious that he hadn't even read my first e-mail. Though I sent it twice.

I replied to that. Tomorrow I'll translate and post both messages, but right now I'm gonna look for something to kick!

Oh My...I don't think he knows what he is asking for.

I'm glad to hear the fountain has been repaired, Teresa.
That will certainly make it much easier for you. :)

This had been my last e-mail to SPEA:

Teresa wrote:

RE: hormone-based products for pigeon population control‏
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 4:56:14 PM
To: luis.costa@spea.pt

Dear Luis,

With the help of international pigeon forums, I have been able to find info on OvoControl P, the progesterone-based product that has been licenced in the States. In spite of the manufacturers' claims, this product has not been licenced in the UK because it has to be administered every day of the year, it is harmful to human eyes (and therefore it must be so to pigeons' eyes too), handlers must wear protective clothing, and, considering that the active principle, Nicarbazin, is a medication used for the control of Coccidiosis, it eradicates the birds' natural immunity to the disease. In some areas, entire flocks died suddenly when hit by an outbreak of the disease and constituted a public health hazard.
Here's the link: http://www.picasuk.com/deterrents_anti_roosting_products.html#lnk9
About Portugal: I had a look at the list of veterinary approved products in Portugal, and apparently the only one licenced for pigeon population control is Avisteril, a progesterone-based compound. It is being used in Coimbra (acta nº 31 de 09/09/2002), but I don't know how successfully.
Guimarães prefers a more bloodthirsty approach. They say that Avisteril didn't work, but the fact that they started treating the pigeons AFTER the Spring breeding season can't have helped!
I have also managed to speak to our Municipal Vet, who says he presented a proposal to the Town Hall, but they're dragging their heels because of the cost. He did say, however, that withholding water from an entire bird population is inhumane and does NOT constitute a means of population control.
Pigeons get a very rough ride. They are no longer pets, and most of them were never indigenous wild birds. This means they fall through the nets of all the measures created to protect birds. If they are a nuisance of our own making, they should be protected and humanely managed. Is this too much to ask?
Yours sincerely,
Teresa.

And this was their reply:

From: luis.costa@spea.pt
Subject: Re: hormone-based products for pigeon population control
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009

Dear Ms.Fontao,
thank you for the information, I now feel much more enlightened. SPEA is an organisation engaged in the conservation of wild bird species, therefore we lack the means or the vocation to dedicate ourselves to that type of intervention, at least for the time being. On a personal level, I empathise with the worry and the need to manage the pigeon problem in a dignified and responsible way. I suggest contacting the animal rights associations, who usually have their own vets, and I hope they will be able to make a positive contribution to improve the situation in Guimaraes.
I also hope that my colleagues at Birdlife International, based in Cambridge, will continue to be useful.
Best wishes,
Luis Costa

(to be continued)