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 Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!

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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:58 pm

Irene...I think the babies are lacking in calcium and likely other nutrients too. I think that's why the legs are splayed and why they shake when they walk and probably why they can't fly.
You need to have them evaluated by a veterinarian that treats birds.
I think I asked this before but don't recall you answer...do you have mice in the apartment?
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:00 am

Hi Charis! If the babies lack Calcium, shall I give them Calcium pills like I did to the females? I also have Multibitamins in liquid, shall I give them these as well? I have two bottles of Multivitamins, one contains MINERALS (per kilo): Iron (E1) 14.300mg, Magnanese (ES) 10.400mg, Zingo (E6) 8.400mg, Copper (E4) 250mg, Iodium (E2) 180mg, Cobalt (E3) 52mg. The other one contains AMINOACIDS (per kilo): Bitamin A 5200000 U.l, bitamin D3 200000 U.l, bitamin E 6500mg, bitamin B1 800mg, bitamin B2 3000mg, bitamin B6 2000mg, bitamin B12 5mg, bitamin K 700mg, bitamin H 20mg, bitamin PP 16000mg, bitamin C 12000mg, Choline Cloride 15000mg, Pantothenic 2200mg, Folic Acid 300mg, DL-Methionine 15000mg, L-Lysine 10000mg. Shall I treat them with one or both of these?

The president of the Avian vets (whose email address you had given me) recommended me a good Avian vet in another city near Venice but unfortunately it is difficult for me to get there as I don't have a car and if I use the public vehicles I will have to change many ferryboats and buses and it may be very stressful for the birds. Also, these days I have been so busy that I don't manage to find enough free time to make this trip. Fortunately, when I travel to Greece in a couple of days will be much easier because I only will have to take a ferryboat that will take me directly to the port in just a few minutes. From there I will take the ship for Greece. When I arrive, my father will be waiting for me with his car so he will bring me and my birds home, which is only one hour away from the port. So hopefully the birds won't suffer much. Perhaps in Greece I can find a good Avian vet and even if he is far away, my father could take me there by his car.

As for mice, there are many in Venice, but they cannot get in my house because it is on the 3rd and last floor, I have no balconies and no holes on the walls... Also, the building is new and in good condition so the mice don't like it much... Sometimes I find big spiders, other big long insects with many legs, and even lizards(!) that get in from the huge window, and when I see them, I catch them and throw them out (because I feel sorry to kill them). There are also A lOT of mosquitoes and little flies that are attracted by my many plants, but I have never found mice... But even if they ever managed to get in, they wouldn't be able to enter the cage of my birds because the holes of its net are too small for them to pass through... So, the birds are safe from mice...

Irene

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:34 am

Irene wrote:

As for mice, there are many in Venice, but they cannot get in my house because it is on the 3rd and last floor, I have no balconies and no holes on the walls... Also, the building is new and in good condition so the mice don't like it much... Sometimes I find big spiders, other big long insects with many legs, and even lizards(!) that get in from the huge window, and when I see them, I catch them and throw them out (because I feel sorry to kill them).

There are also A lOT of mosquitoes and little flies that are attracted by my many plants, but I have never found mice... But even if they ever managed to get in, they wouldn't be able to enter the cage of my birds because the holes of its net are too small for them to pass through... So, the birds are safe from mice...

Irene

Do the mosquitoes get inside your place, Irene?

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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:03 pm

Irene...it's just as esay to over dose your birds with vitamins as it is to under dose them. That is why they need to be evaluated by an avian veterinarain that understands pigeons.

It wouldn't hurt though to treat the babies with calcium just as you have their mother.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:41 pm

Here's a product that you maybe able to buy in a pet shop. This article explains why vitamiin D3 is so very important. In the US, it can be purchased on line at All Bird Products.

Soluvite D For Birds Limited to sunlight

Soluvite D will help promote the health and breeding in birds that are housed in doors. Limited exposure to sunlight may result in Vitamin D deficiency. Vitamin D has a role in the absorption of Calcium. Calcium is essential for normal growth of healthy bones in young birds and for normal eggshell formation in breeding birds. Many times birds that are deficiency in Calcium will have problems with balance, feather plucking, and nervousness, as calcium is not only for the bones but it works on the nervous system as well as the muscles of the bird.

Indications: To supplement diets which may be deficient in Vitamin D3.

Soluvite D is a water soluble formula that provides additional Vitamin D3, as well as 13 essential vitamins and minerals to promote the health and breeding performance of birds housed indoors.

Directions: Add 4g to 400ml (1 tsp per 1/2 quart) of water and stir well or add 1g to 1 cup of food and combine well. Daily use of vitamins in either food or water is recommended to supplement the diet. Soluvite D may be used in all species of birds. Prepared water should not be exposed to direct sunlight, replace daily.

Active Constituents: Vitamin A, Vitamin D3, Vitamin E, Vitamin K, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Thiamine Pyridoxine, Cyanocobalamin (B12), Folic Acid, Choline Bitartrate, Biotin, Iodine.

Most birds that are housed indoors do not get the proper amount of sunlight. Using the Soluvite D will give them the Vitamin D needed to be healthy birds. No need to give any other vitamin supplement when using Soluvite D.

Many people think by putting the birds by a window will give them enough sunlight, but ultraviolet B light (UVB) does not travel through glass or clear plastic or fiberglass. In most cases all bird aviaries have no UVB light. While certain foods contain Vitamin D3 such as cod liver oil, which is a messy supplement does not help. Many times birds that are low in Vitamin D3 will cease breeding. We have heard of spectacular results, as birds being in better health, egg binding down to zero, the birds are back to having clutches, and the chicks are huge often bigger than their parents. Often birds that were infertile are now often fertile again, by using the Soluvite D.

Many birds are not good breeders because of a lack of Vitamin D only to find out that all they need is sunlight to make them breed. Any time a bird is deficiency in Vitamin D3 the birds immune system can lead to severe and constant disease problems. When Vitamin D3 increases the problems improve. So if you can not give your birds direct sunlight then it is best to use the Soluvite D as you will see better breeding results, better disease resitance birds, healthy eyes, no cases of feather loss, healthier babies, and parents. Nothing is more healing than the sun and if you can not give this to your birds then using the Soluvite D will do the job. The results in a very short time will be visable.

Until recently we thought that Vitamin D was only involved in controlling levels of calcium for bones and eggs. The new research found Vitamin D's anticancer role and its effect on the immune system has been a real step forward. It is amazing the affect this can have on your birds being deficiency in Vitamin D. By using the Soluvite D, it will be protecting your birds from chronic, recurring infections. Many times antibiotics have failed due to the lack of vitamin D. Birds are just like people they need sun light also. Most all of the older vitamin supplements fed to birds simply don't contain anywhere near enough Vitamin D3. Using the Soluvite D, you will be giving them the Vitamin D3 they need even if these are indoor birds and outdoor raised birds.

For many years breeders have had disease problems that almost destroyed their flocks. Viral diseases that can cause feather loss in adult birds. Flightless and tailess, diseases called megabacteria or avian gastric yeast, chronic runny noses and sneezing, constantly infected eyes,infertility, coccidiosis, many of these can be avoided by using the Soluvite D, used daily in the water.

So why not try the Soluvite D and see the difference in your birds health. You will be happy you did when you see the results.



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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Dec 31, 2010 7:55 pm

This information is very useful! I had already heard that birds with depressed immune systems and/or neurological problems, like PMV survivors for example, benefit from a calcium supplement. But until now I hadn't seen a list of the symptoms that can be associated with calcium deficiency.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:43 pm

Teresa wrote:
This information is very useful! I had already heard that birds with depressed immune systems and/or neurological problems, like PMV survivors for example, benefit from a calcium supplement. But until now I hadn't seen a list of the symptoms that can be associated with calcium deficiency.

I think that neurlogical problems can be caused from a lack of vitamin D3 and calcium.
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:26 pm

Hello and happy new year!

I'm still in Greece with my birds but tomorrow morning I'm travelling back to Venice. Charis, thank you so much for the important information about vitamin D that you posted, I read everything very carefully. It is very likely that my birds have a deficiency of vitamin D because they have a lot of the symptoms that you mentioned: balance problems, weak immune system, egg binding, nervousness / aggressiveness, etc.

In Venice I have a little bottle of vitamin D in liquid form, but it is for humans, could I use that? If not, I'll order the one that is especially for birds, which you suggested.

Today I'm very worried for my birds, because this morning I noticed that Comis lost her feathers around her neck...! A featherless ring was formed around her neck and there are some feathers missing from under her eye...! 2-3 days ago I also noticed that sometimes she started coughing continually for 1-2 minutes after eating... Could it be that Canker has come back to her? What are all these symptoms...? Shall I start giving her Metronidazole again, 25mg once a day for 5 days? Tomorrow we have a long trip ahead of us, I hope her condition doesn't worsen because of stress... Shall I start giving her Metronidazole from today and during the trip? (I have brought the medicines from Italy with me) We will be travelling for a day and a night on the ship to Italy...

Stachtoboota (one of the older sisters of Comis) laid an egg one day before we travelled to Greece and she hasn't laid the second one since then, she has kept it inside her... She is also in trouble...

Meli (the father of all my birds) has a swollen foot since this morning and he avoids stepping on it... He holds it up for most of the time... I'm also worried for him... I checked to see if he has any injury but I didn't find anything... Only the joint of his fingers is swollen...

Fortunately, all my birds (including Comis, Stachtoboota and Meli) seem to be in a good mood, they eat and drink normally and they behave as if they were healthy, but they are probably pretending...

I tried to find an avian vet here, but the situation is actually worse than in Venice... I couldn't find anybody! So when I go back to Venice I'll bring my birds to the avian vet that works in a town nearby...

Poor birds, they keep having problems... Unfortunately these days the weather in Greece is very bad, it's always cloudy and dark and my birds are suffering a lot from the lack of sunlight... Let's hope the weather in Venice will be better!

Irene


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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:01 pm

Irene...even in Venice your birds aren't getting sunlight because they live indoors.

I do think you should start Comis on metronidazole again. The dose depends upon his current weight so if you can weigh him, that would be helpful. It could be that traveling stress him enough to cause an outbreak of internal canker.

As for Meli...I don't know what to tell you. Is the swollen toe red and hot to the touch?


How do you know Stachtoboota has a second egg inside? How do you think she is in trouble? How is she acting?

Can you tell us the strength of vitD?
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:34 pm

Hi Charis,

unfortunately my parents don't have weighting scales and I can't weigh Comis... I remember that the last time I weigned her she was about 230gr... Now she is fully grown but she is much smaller than the other pigeons...

I just checked Meli's foot again and the swelling has disappeared!! Now he seems fine again! His feet are both warm and they have their normal colour! Even in the morning when it was swollen it didn't look red...

The day before I travelled to Italy I had found one egg in the nest of Stachtoboota and Arapis (her companion), so I expected them to have their second egg during our trip to Greece or the day after, but I didn't find anything for many days! Yesterday morning I found an egg in the nest of Kirki and Halimah and this evening I found two more eggs in their nest. But Stachtoboota still hasn't laid her second egg... It has been a week since she had her first egg... However, she seems fine...!

Unfortunately I haven't brought the bottle of vitamin D with me, but I'll check it's strength and I'm back in Venice and I'll tell you.

Shall I give 25gr Metronidazole a day to Comis like I did the first time or shall I give her more this time?

Thank you so much for your help! Thank You

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:38 pm

II don't know what dose to tell you for Comis, without you weighing him. Just because he was 230 gm last time you weighed him, doesn't mean that his weight is necessarily the same. How about one of your parent's neighbors that might have a scale?
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:41 pm

I don't know where in Greece you are, but this doctor is highly recommended. Perhaps you could call and ask for a referal near to where you are.

DR.Giannis Makriois
Xanthi, Greece
00302541074523


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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:23 pm

Charis, now in Greece is very late at night, it's 2am, so we cannot ask the neighbours to lend us their scales... At 6am I will start my long trip back to Venice, so unfortunately I don't even have the opportunity to call any vet here in Greece. I had tried to find someone the first days I was here but I couldn't find anyone in my city Ioannina (which is in North Greece in the mountains). Thank you for giving me the telephone number of a Greek avian vet, it may be useful to me in the future because I travel to Greece often to see my parents and I always bring my birds with me...

So you also think that I should give Metronidazole to Comis during our trip because we'll be on the ship for one day and one night and she may become more sick... Since we don't know her weight, shall I give her 25mg as in the past and then when I arrive in Venice weigh her, tell you her weight and adjust the doses of the following days according to her weight? In other words, shall I give her 25mg the first day (during the trip) and more or less mg (according to her weight) the next days (after weighing her in Italy)?
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:52 pm

Yes...go ahead and start the metronidazole.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:01 pm

Ok, I'll do that, thank you! I'll tell you Comis' weight in two days when I'm back in Italy! Bye for now.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:51 pm

Hope you have a safe journey back, Irene, and that Comis gets better.
Glad to know that Meli's symptoms disappeared.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:16 pm

Thank you for wishing me a good trip Teresa. Fortunately everything went well and now I'm back in Italy! It is really wonderful that Meli's foot is fine now and he is walking normally again! Perhaps he had hurt it somewhere, who knows, he is always very lively, active and careless... Comis is also doing well! I'm really glad that her condition didn't worsen during the trip... She is still eating and drinking and she seems happy! However, yesterday she had a bit of a cough and today I noticed that she lost more feathers, not only around her neck but also from her wings and her tail... I have started to suspect that she may have parasites, because she is scratching herself often... But could parasites cause a bird's feathers to fall off...? I'm thinking to spray her with 'Foractil' for birds, she may have caught parasites from the plants because I have a lot of them in my flat and they attract a lot of insects... What is your opinion, Charis? Yesterday, Comis had a bit of a cough as well (for a few seconds), so I suspect that Canker is still troubling her... I gave her 25mg of Metronidazole during the trip. Today I weighed her and her weight is 277gr, so what would be the right dose for her?

Halimah laid her second egg and so she got rid of all of them! I think the Calcium tablets have helped my birds a lot, because their last eggs look normal, strong and healthy! But Stachtoboota still hasn't laid her second egg... However, today she was sitting in her nest, so I hope she lays her egg soon, too!

Charis, I checked the strength of my soluble vitamin D3. The bottle contains 10.000 U.l./ml Colecalciferolo (vitamin D3). How much should I give to my birds?

Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:34 pm


She may be going through her first moult & thats why her feathers are falling out in many spots. When feathers fall out, due to moulting, & new feathers grow in they can be Very itchy, this could be why she is picking alot too.

Sometimes you can see external parasites by spreading the wing feathers out & looking underneath the wing feathers.
Here in the U.S I add a 1/2 Tablespoon of Borax, the same that you use for laundry, in about 2 gals. of water, mix well & pour into a container for the pigeons to bathe in. I do this twice a week & haven't had any problems with parasites.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:49 pm

I found this about vitaminD.


Parrot-like birds appear to do well with about 600 iu of vitamin D3 per pound of dry pelleted diet fed – slightly higher , with increased calcium when they are laying eggs. In the bird species studied, none were able to utilize vitamin D2. I seem to recall that the human recommended daily allowance of vitamin D is about 400iu**. To the best of my knowledge, all commercial pelleted avian diets contain added vitamin D3 in similar amounts. It is a fat-soluble vitamin, so it persists in the body and can not be added to the bird’s water effectively. Signs of too little or a bit too much vitamin D can take considerable time to show themselves because it is stored for long periods in the body’s fat. As I said previously, birds seem to only absorb vitamin D3 whereas people can absorb or synthesize vitamin D2 & D3.

http://www.2ndchance.info/birdsvitd.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:07 pm

I'm glad to hear you had a safe journey back home, Irene.

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:39 pm

Cindy, thank you for your kind words. I'm also glad that my trip went well and I was allowed on the ship with all these pigeons...! Cute Dove Cute Dove

Robin, thank you for explaining to me that Comis may go through her first moult and also for your suggestions about how to clear my birds from external parasites. Comis has lost MANY more feathers and she looks like a worn out moth-eaten carpet with holes!! She has lost even the feathers of her tail, only 3 are left! Apart from that, she is fine! I gave her a second circle of Metronidazole[/b], as Charis suggested, to make sure that Canker doesn't return to her (because sometimes she was coughing after eating). Both her and Selini are eating and drinking with a lot of appetite and they seem happy! As for the parasites, I couldn't see any when I checked Comis but I used the spray for birds that I have in the house to be on the safe side... However, Comis continued to scratch herself and to lose feathers and that proves that parasites are not the real cause of her feather loss...

3 days ago, Stachtoboota had her second egg (at last), but then she became so weak that she could not stand on her feet anymore, [b]she was like paralysed!
I was very worried for her and I gave her calcium pills, multivitamins for birds, and peas. Fortunately now she is fine again and I have calmed down!

Charis, thank you a lot for the useful information about vitamin D3 and its beneficial effects on birds. It is written on my little bottle of D3 that the recommended dose for humans is 3-4 drops (750-1000 U.l) a day. What would be the right dose for a pigeon?
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:53 pm

No...the human dose of D3 would be way too much for a pigeon.



That's not the second egg but the first of another set and so she should lay another in 2 to 3 days.
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:55 pm

Hi Charis, I have this little bottle of multivitamins for birds and it is written on it that it contains 200.000 U.l of vitamin D3 per kilo. It is written in the instructions that I should put 4-5 ml (6-8 drops) in 100 ml of water and give it to the birds to drink for 5-7 days every month. I tried to do that but my birds didn't want to drink the water because it was bright yellow! So I'm now giving one drop of the multivitamins to Stachtoboota every day, directly into her beak (without mixing it with water), it is the 3rd day now and it has helped her recover very fast! Shall I give this multivitamin liquid to my other birds as well (since we don't know what exactly would be the right dose of D3 for them)? This oral suspension is especially for birds, so it must contain the right doses of vitamins I suppose... However, it is not for pigeons but for birds in general, so I don't know if it is too 'light' for pigeons... but it have worked miracles for Stachtoboota...!

Stachtoboota had an egg the day before we travelled back to Italy but she didn't lay her second one for many days! She finally laid it 3 days ago! Since then, she has not laid another egg... It is really strange but she had her second egg 6 days after her first one!
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:01 pm

Irene wrote:
Hi Charis, I have this little bottle of multivitamins for birds and it is written on it that it contains 200.000 U.l of vitamin D3 per kilo. It is written in the instructions that I should put 4-5 ml (6-8 drops) in 100 ml of water and give it to the birds to drink for 5-7 days every month. I tried to do that but my birds didn't want to drink the water because it was bright yellow! So I'm now giving one drop of the multivitamins to Stachtoboota every day, directly into her beak (without mixing it with water), it is the 3rd day now and it has helped her recover very fast! Shall I give this multivitamin liquid to my other birds as well (since we don't know what exactly would be the right dose of D3 for them)? This oral suspension is especially for birds, so it must contain the right doses of vitamins I suppose... However, it is not for pigeons but for birds in general, so I don't know if it is too 'light' for pigeons... but it have worked miracles for Stachtoboota...!


I'm confused because there are 20 drops per each ML.

If 1 drop seemed to help then I guess it would be okay to give each bird a drop a day.
I think that if you put it in their water though, they will get used to it.

Stachtoboota had an egg the day before we travelled back to Italy but she didn't lay her second one for many days! She finally laid it 3 days ago! Since then, she has not laid another egg... It is really strange but she had her second egg 6 days after her first one!
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:37 pm

Sorry Charis, I actually made a mistake...! The instructions say "4-5 ml per kilogram of feed or LITRE of water (ecqual to approx. 6-8 drops of a medium-sized drinking tray / 100 ml) for 5-7 consecutive days" Since it is written that I should put 8 drops in 100 ml of water, if birds drink about 6 ml of water a day, they would receive half a drop... but it is impossible to give them half a drop... If a whole drop is too much for them, perhaps I should give them the multivitamins for 3-4 days instead of 5-7... I'll try again to put the drops in their water, if they become very thirsty they may drink... Otherwise I'll have to give them a drop directly into their beaks as I did with Stachtoboota... Let's see...
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