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 My lovely Spikey

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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

Posts : 52
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Age : 70
Location : Belgium/Spain

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PostSubject: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 5:10 pm

Spikey is a German racer that had been abandoned by her caretaker. I adopted her along with 31 other racers from the same loft.
She has been with me since 2005, she is over 15 years old, very tame, her husband Jo is 18.
When I left for Spain, she was ok, very healthy, happy and lively.
When I returned and visited the rescue center in december, I found out she was skinny and listless.
I took her in, so she would not have to spend the winter in cold, it was VERY cold this year in Belgium, and altough the rescue center is heathed, the temperature in the lofts will not pass 10°C/50°F
In 2007 she had been diagnosed with streptoccus, so I gave her a treatment with Synulox for 7 days.
She did not loose more weight, ate well but stayed calm, listless... she was not my Spikey anymore.
She did not even care about Jo anymore, with who she has always been very in love.
So I treated her for everything I could think of: worms (moxydectin plus), tricho, canker, coxi... with Oropharma products.

When we left for Spain in february, I took her with me to live under the sun in her old age.
She ate well, very much in fact, and all the little grains that are full of proteines, but continued loosing weight and had some dioerrhea.
So I went to a vet here. He examinated her faeces under the microscope, and told me something gram negative, he could not specifie what exactly, probably E coli or salmonella.
Followed a 10 days treatment with baytril, her poops became better, i gave her probiotics and vitamines... nothing to do, she is still loosing weight.
I guess she is 250 gr now, enjoys being outside sunbathing with Joe, saw them mating again first time since 6 months... I am afraid if eggs would come she will not survive Very sad
They spend daytime outside, but sleep inside my house, because the nights are still fresh here in Spain.
I really have no clue what might be going on... could she have cancer? (not canker, cancer) Not sure if the Spanish vet can Xray her... can it be found out that way?
I am reluctant to give her anymore meds that might be useless and upset her poor little body for nothing.
What is your opinion? I have no recent pic of her...
My lovely Spikey Spikey10

My lovely Spikey Spikey11
Thanks, Myriam
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

Posts : 52
Join date : 2009-06-05
Age : 70
Location : Belgium/Spain

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 5:16 pm

Ooops, forgot to tell...
While all the others have already moulted, she started a few day ago.
She looses a lot of litlle undevelopped or half developped feathers confused
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Matilda
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Matilda

Posts : 9198
Join date : 2009-01-11
Location : Pacific Northwest of the United States of America

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 5:19 pm

Myriam...she looks so like a pigeon I had, whose name was Angel and lived to be 14.
Sure...she could have cancer, still...I am suspicious of some kind of parasite. Parasites are difficult to identify because they can't be found in every dropping the bird makes.
How long ago did you treat her for worms?
Was it just one treatment or did you repeat in 10-14 days?
How does her poop look? Can we see a picture of her poop?
When did you last treat for coccidia?
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

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Age : 70
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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 5:22 pm

I gave her twice Moxydectin Plus, in december, and in february.
Coxy was trated with appertex single dose in february also.
Canker with Trichoplus single dose, once.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 5:28 pm

For coccdia treatment to be effective, the appertex needs to be repeated after 10 days. Sometimes, appertex doesn't work and you need to try a different coccdia drug.
The same goes for spartrix and canker. The cure is for 5 pills, 5 days in a row. Personally, I've found metronidazole to work better. It also is a multi day treatment.
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

Posts : 52
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Age : 70
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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 5:37 pm

I'll try Coxyplus from Oropharma.
The Trichocure says 1 single dose (preventive) or 1 dose and 2 days later another one (curative)
Should I start it all over? I only gave one dose of Trichocure.
Trichocure is considered better than Saprtrix by Belgian vets.
What happened to Angel?
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

Posts : 52
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Age : 70
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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 5:39 pm

Metronidazole... do you mean Flagyl? I think I have some, from my dog... What is the dose?
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 6:10 pm

Angel passed on. She spent the last years of her life living on the floor of my office and sleeping in a litle bed I put there for her.
Yes...flagyl is the same as metronidazole. You will need to weigh her so we can come up with a dose.
I do think you should start over.
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 6:14 pm

If I am well inforemd, for tape worms, I should use praziquantel? Do you know the dose?
I would love to see a pic of Angel in her litlle bed, she must have been so happy with you Cute Dove
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

Posts : 52
Join date : 2009-06-05
Age : 70
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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 6:22 pm

I weighted her... 210 gr Not feeling well
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Matilda
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Matilda

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Location : Pacific Northwest of the United States of America

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 6:26 pm

Myriam...Angel passed on long before I had a digital camera. I took a polaroid picture of her but it long since fadded. Very sad I had her from when she was a squeaker.
I don't know that your little hen has tape worm. When I made that comment, I was unaware she had a one dose treatment of appertex and only one spartrix. I think you should treat for coccidia and canker first.
What does her poop look like? Does it smell bad?

Oh My..she is alarmingly thin.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 6:32 pm

How many mg per flagyl pill, Myriam?
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 6:40 pm

Myriam... if she were in my care, I would give her 20mg of the flagyl, 1 time a day for 5 days and see if there is an improvment. I would also treat for coccidia.
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

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Age : 70
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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 6:52 pm

Do you think this old instrument for weighting is ok? My Toto appears to weight 260 gr, he is 18, but perfectly healthy, except on side blindness... 260?????????? is this possible for a healthy bird?
gonna buy another one before treating with Flagyl... Flagyl is for the canker, not?
I will already start the coxy again tomorrow morning, and first weight her again.
Thank you for your help, Charis Great job YOU rock
Goona sleep, it's 2.50 am here Shock
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 6:59 pm

Wouldn't be a bad idea to get anotheer scale to be sure of the weight. She should be at least twice the weight your scale says she is.
Yes...flagyl is for canker.
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AZWhitefeather
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AZWhitefeather

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeMon May 10, 2010 10:39 pm

Such a beautiful girl she is, Myriam. Circle of Love

_________________
Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeTue May 11, 2010 5:38 pm

Hope you got some sleep, Myraim. How's the litttle girl doing? Were you able to confirm her weight?
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeTue May 11, 2010 6:58 pm

I had to get my partner at the airport today, quite far, and the plane was very late. I did not have the opportunity to buy another scale.
I weighted Jo, her husband, he makes 470 gr, have some impression the scale is wrong, because he is a big fat bird.
But anyway, I gave Trichocure to Spikey today, I did some research, and Flagyl and Trichocure are quite the same product. The Flagyl was too old, I had to throw it away.
I will repeat in two days as indicated on Oropharma's website.
She is quiet, enjoys her days in the sun, eats well and does not seem to be in pain. If I only found out what is killing her softly.
Are tapeworms common in pigeons? because if it is tapeworm, I would have to treat her with praziquantel.
Myriam
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeTue May 11, 2010 7:15 pm

I would not say that tape worms are common in pigeons yet I've had several infected the past year.
Metronidazole should be good for 2 years past the expiration date.
Canker, coccidia and worms are conditions that pigeons must be treated for on a regular schedule and by doing so the numbers remain managable in their bodies. You see...we can never really kill all the worms or other parasites and so the do need to be managed.
If she does have internal canker infection, I doubt that the treatment you are planning will be adequate.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: From an article by Dr Chalmers and Dr Frank   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeTue May 11, 2010 8:37 pm

Please take note of the part hi-lighted.

http://www.albertaclassic.net/trichomonas/trichomonas.php




CANKER!
by Dr. Karl Frank

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The diagram of the flagellate protozoan Trichonomas gallinae can be seen at the left with its undulating membrane and a central axostyle. There may be as many as 2 dozen strains of this organism infecting our racing pigeons with each strain being resistant or susceptible to some antibiotics. It may also be assumed that each of those strains exhibits a different level of virulence. The typical yellow growths in the mouth, pharynx, and crop as seen on the right are much less frequent than was the case in the past. Although these cheesy masses have become rare in Europe's racing pigeon scene, the infection trichomoniasis is still regarded there as the largest inhibitor to today's racing pigeon performance.
The wide spread use of antibiotics in the 1970's and 1980's has almost been successful in exterminating these strains which left an easily visible symptom of their presence. This "extermination" coincided with the emergence of various strains of this organism to which the pigeon's body does not react with a violent immune response and create these cheesy masses. Without an immune response, these more virulent strains are invisible to the naked eye but can easily invade the body, attacking and destroying the liver and various other internal organs.
Today's fancier may very well assume himself to be safe from trichomoniasis in the absence of cheesy masses in his birds or he may resort to periodic blind "cures" with antibiotics just in case... Either alternative is problematic because the bird's racing performance may be severely affected in the first case or the blind cures may lead to the development of resistant strains making the administration of the antibiotic ineffective. Only microscopic examination of the crop's contents will show the presence or absence of Trichomonas gallinae and also the relative concentration of this protozoan.
Some veterinarians, e.g. Tiberius Mohr, would prefer to rinse the crop and examine this liquid with a phase contrast microscope in looking for these flagellates or he may even culture this liquid in a special medium and thereby concentrate the specimen. The advantage of this system is that even a very low presence of trichomonads can be detected and they can also be tested for antibiotic resistance.
In the absence of such a specialized laboratory I need to be content following a much simpler method which still gives useful results. A cotton swab is fluffed up a bit and immersed in distilled water. The excess fluid is removed and the swab is inserted into the crop. All walls of the crop are contacted by using a swirling motion with the swab which is then withdrawn and the fluid held in the cotton is expressed onto a slide with the help of a spatula or bunt knife. We add a cover slip and have a look at the slide under a magnification of 300 X. These Protozoa can be seen to move about in a somewhat jerky wobbling motion.
Since it is counterproductive to assist in the creation of micro - organisms resistant to available antibiotics, it would be ideal if we could use only antibiotics to which the organism in question is sensitive to. However, antibiotic sensitivity tests regarding Trichomonas are not readily available in many locations. The solution is, at least partially, to examine crop smears microscopically not only before treatment but also a couple of days after treatment just to make sure that the antibiotic used is still effective against the micro - organism in question. A recent study done in the faculty of veterinary medicine in Barcelona found some Trichomonas organism resistant to all the nitroimidazole drugs tested. Similar results were obtained by a study done in Utrecht (Netherlands) where it was also found that the dosage commonly recommended for Ronidazole is usually too low and needs to be multiplied many times for the drug to be effective.
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeTue May 11, 2010 10:30 pm

We appreciate the update, Myriam. Smile
Positive thoughts for Spikey continue. Circle of Love

_________________
Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.


Last edited by Fancyfeathers on Wed May 12, 2010 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeWed May 12, 2010 3:37 pm

Matilda wrote:
. A recent study done in the faculty of veterinary medicine in Barcelona found some Trichomonas organism resistant to all the nitroimidazole drugs tested. Similar results were obtained by a study done in Utrecht (Netherlands) where it was also found that the dosage commonly recommended for Ronidazole is usually too low and needs to be multiplied many times for the drug to be effective.

I knew about the dosage is often to low, I did not know about trichomonas being resistant Disappointed
I have an appointment with the vet again tomorrow at 17 pm, I will keep you informed.
In the meantime, she eats a storm, and seems to go lighter every day... I remember my beloved father doing the same a few weeks before his passing. He died from cancer.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeWed May 12, 2010 4:06 pm

I'll be looking forward to what the vet tells you. I sure can't say she doesn't have cancer but understanding canker, coccoia and worms ...understanding that one tome treatment doesn't work, of course I'm hoping it be common pigeon condition instead. If she has had any medication these couple of days before your appointment, the medication may mask what is going on with her.
I'm thinking good thoughts for you and your flock, Myriam.
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeWed May 12, 2010 4:30 pm

I'm hoping for the best at your vet appointment, Myriam. Cute Dove
Yes, please do let us know how it goes.

_________________
Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Lapalomatriste

Lapalomatriste

Posts : 52
Join date : 2009-06-05
Age : 70
Location : Belgium/Spain

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PostSubject: Re: My lovely Spikey   My lovely Spikey Icon_minitimeWed May 12, 2010 5:55 pm

Matilda wrote:
I would not say that tape worms are common in pigeons yet I've had several infected the past year.

If she does have internal canker infection, I doubt that the treatment you are planning will be adequate.

I read tapeworms seldom can be seen under the microscope.
Is it true that only praziquantel is effective against tapeworm? if so, no use that i give a dewormer without praziquantel.
Moxydetin will not cure tapeworms i suppose.
I have Drontal here (1 tablet= febantel 150 mg + pirantel 50 mg + praziquantel 50 mg)
I called Herbots, the famous Belgian pigeon vet, he told me to give her 125 mg of drontal... :eek: not at once I suppose???? I read somewhere that one should give 5mg praziquantel /kg bodyweight
His recommendation looks very odd to me, I tried to ask, but he told me kind of "shut up, I know better then you"
He also told me tapeworms almost never affect pigeons, but finally admitted it could happen,especially when pigeons eat little animals in the grass (what Spikey likes to do, foraging in the grass)
He is very well known, but for him a pigeon is an object that must be restored for flying prices Seeing red/mad

I gave her one tablet of Trichocure yesterday.
This will off course have an influence on the crop swab.
Knowing that one tablet= 5 mg of ronidazole, how would you treat?

And another question: can i give different meds on the same day? for example ronidazole and a coxi med? will it not upset her stomach?
I never did before, but it might be urgent here to act as quick as possible.
Thank you, Myriam
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