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 Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics

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AZWhitefeather
Jaye
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Jaye
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Location : San Francisco, CA, USA

Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Empty
PostSubject: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 3:43 pm

Hi all. Am between a rock and a hard place. I have a patient, survivor of attempted hawk attack, resulting in a small gash beneath left eye. I treated him, washed the wound, applied silvadene to it, and medicated him w/ cipro and medacam. I then noticed he was exhibiting symptoms oft associated w/ PMV...star-gazing, floppy head, bad coordination, ability to walk only backwards....flapping wings wildly until he eventually falls over himself and just stops moving (usually with head under body by this point). I prop him up in a "towel-donut-nest"...but thru the night he has these "episodes which makes him flail about the cage..so I prop hm back again, etc....

Now, this also could be result of head trauma/neurological damage, I dunno for sure. But I do know hat, after giving the meds, his condition seemed to nosedive. very unresponsive, unalert, unable to even come anywhere close to eatng on hs own.

have been syringe-feedng...even that is diffcult...I don't wanna get the formula down the trachea, and it's difficult to get more than 1cc into him per feeding. Fortunately, I CAN get Pedialyte into him much more successfully. I don't think I can pull off tube down crop feeding, I am too scared to try....

I have read that antibiotics actually exacerbate PMV symptoms....but am in a tough position. The gash is definitely from the hawk, so skin was broken and contact made...so he needs the cipro to prevent bacterial infection. BUT....he likely has the viral PMV infection, and I am gleaning (hoping, actually) that the antibiotics is worsening his abilities to remain "with it".

I am handing him off to another member Sunday someone with a lotta PMV experience...but I need to keep the guy going thru the next 36 hrs...and he really doesn't look good.....
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 4:23 pm

Hi Jaye,
Many thanks for taking over the care of this little guy.

Keeping him hydrated, as you are doing with the pedialyte, is primary right now.
I know they can go without food longer than without fluids.

Pij, our PMV bird was able to eat from a deep dish, so I didn't have to resort to other feeding measures. I don't tube feed either.

How about offering him some thawed, frozen peas, one at a time or some pieces of soaked puppy chow, if you have any available?

Given there is an attack and injury issue, I don't think not giving antibiotics is an option.

Cynthia may still be up and hopefully will check in before retiring. Charis should be on soon as well.

Please keep us posted.

Cindy

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Cynthia

Cynthia

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Location : England

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 4:55 pm

Hi Jaye,

I agree with Cindy, it would be worse to withhold antibiotics. It is giving them as a prophylactic that can do more harm than good sometimes because it has been known to aggravate the lesions, but that is not inevitable.

John nursed some of his "balcony pigeons" through PMV, hand feeding them defrosted peas and corn, about 50 twice a day. They did well, gained weight and produced impressively healthy poops. Now I use his method when tube feeding can be risky.

I don't think the antibiotics will have caused the worsening of his condition but some of us have noticed that giving two drops of calcium syrup twice a day can help.



Cynthia
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Capuccino

Capuccino

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 5:03 pm

I had a PMV pigeon who developed a wheeze when breathing, so I had no hesitation in giving him Baytril. It sorted out the problem in no time, though I gave him the full 7 days anyway.

John
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Jaye
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PostSubject: UPDATE   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 1:03 pm

Trials and tribulations of trying to feed this guy....up to his same old tricks last night. Took Pedialyte but not much formula. Seed poppong didn't work. Tried some other pigeon friends, but nobody else knew how to gavage/crop feed either.

I was out most of evening (my GF's B-Day) and when I got back this AM, he was still hanging in there. But I can now feel his keel bone rather prominently....

Spoke with a few more members, and Charis in particular ran through with me how to corn-pop/pea-pop w/o the hazard of possibly asphyxiation.

IT WORKED REALLY WELL THIS AM ! Got a bunch of defrosted, warmed corn kernels and some peas into him...then I crushed up some Parrot pellets and wetted them down as well...and he took those too ! Finally, for the first time he's been here, I could actually feel some semblance of his crop as it filled with breakfast...

He is gonna be getting a banquet today, for sure....


He also seemed to be doing better today, more alert, dfinitely putting up more of a fight...was able to open the eye on the side of the gash, which he didn't do too much before.

Symptoms still persist, head-lolling and backwards walking, etc...but he doesn't seem quite as zoned out as the last 2 days. All in all, a better place than I had assumed we'd be 24 hrs. ago.

He goes to his next caregiver tom'w. Thanks for all the replies...they are very helpful !
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 1:35 pm

Appreciate the update, Jaye. Smile
So glad to hear the feeding went better this morning.

Gotta love teamwork! Thrilled

_________________
Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 1:49 pm



I'm so relieved it worked out. I was frustrated because I wanted to rush over and help but I'm so far away.
Tell that GF of your happy belated BD. :Happy Birthday

I hope I get to meet her one day.

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Jaye
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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeSun Apr 19, 2009 6:04 pm

Sure...maybe I'll bring her up when I take the kid to college Wink

Update: he is totally standing and moving like a pigeon now. His injured eye is open...BUT...I am not sure he has full sight, or even partial sight...in it. It seems he has some sight.

Now when i enter teh room he responds, looks around, etc. He is even preening himself. His head is still a tad loopy, but not at first glance...and way, way, way better than the previous days.

I dropped some seed into his cage just to see what he'd do, and he started pecking at it...kinda weakly, but definitely was trying. But this is when I noticed he tilts his head way to the side of the good eye...as if he is looking at the seed with the good ehye only, instead of pecking straight-on as a pidge usually does. So, I will get a look at that again, too. The gash was below the eye, not on the eye...the eye isn't compressed or anything, the lid is just only 3/4 open at best...so he may have some damage to his sight there, though.

Seem to have had a misconnection w/ the caregiver I was supposed to hand him to, so he is with me for another day...although at this point, he looks on the rebound and I feel pretty confident that now that he is eating and drinking well, I can mend him up myself if need be....
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeSun Apr 19, 2009 6:57 pm



I'm glad he's improving.
Sorry about the misconnection. Sounds like you can handle the situation just fine though and you've learned, because of this little bird, some important things. Great job.


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Jaye
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PostSubject: UPDATE   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeTue Apr 21, 2009 10:48 pm

OK, so he continues to do smashingly. Is eating seed on his own now, seems to be drinking on his own now (when I put his beak to the water dish, he takes a big drink. I leave it in there with him, he seems to be drinking some, in between spilling it everywhere :eek:)

Both eyes open all the time now; although the one above the cheek cut seems to be able to open only about 80%...don't think it's an eye thing, but an eyelid thing. He definitely has sight out of it..I have been experimenting w/ approching him from that side and he clearly sees me coming....He spends almost all his time standing, although yesterday I found him sitting and stretching out his wings in the sunlight....

He even wing-whipped me tonight when I was changing his cage bottom !

So, couldn't have asked for a better turnaround..I am stoked.

But the Q's persist: does this seem like it is PMV and he is coming out of it ? Seems that he improved so fast. or was he maybe just in shock and suffering some temporary neurological symptoms from the attack ?

Lastly...gosh...would he be releasable ? I can answer half of that Q, based on my observations as to whether he has gained his full coordination and strength back; and his eyesight.....

...but I am also asking from the viewpoint of...if it was PMV...are PMV birds releasable or do they create a danger to a feral flock ???



ooh, look, I finally found the colors template !!!! cheers
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeTue Apr 21, 2009 10:56 pm

I don't think it was PMV. If it was, I doubt you'd be seeing such a rapid improvement.

I wonder if those extreme symptoms were brought on by the pain medicine, shock and hunger/dehydration? I don't know. Sounds like he will be releaseable if that eyelid improves.

Glad he's better.
Glad you found the color. Your post looks good in green. Celebrate

This is the best up date you could have given us. Thank You
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Cynthia

Cynthia

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeWed Apr 22, 2009 5:01 am

I agree with Charis, the neurological symptoms are more likely to be the result of trauma.

PMV pigeons don't create a danger to the feral flock. We keep them isolated for 8 weeks to be on the safe side, so that we can be certain that they are not carrying any fecal dust on their feathers by encouraging frequent baths, then we put them in the aviary with our other pigeons (which haven't been vaccinated as the aviary is covered and I fear vaccinations!). In the 10 years that I have been rescuing pigeons with PMV I have not had a single case of cross infection.

The real danger of PMV is that the symptoms can return at times of stress this isn't reinfection and they don't resume the shedding of the virus). One hen had this relapse of the symptoms after more than 6 years in the aviary and can no longer fly up to her nesting box although she lays eggs and sits on them, relying on us to return her to her nest when she goes for a walkabout.

Cynthia
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AZWhitefeather
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AZWhitefeather

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Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Empty
PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeWed Apr 22, 2009 8:02 am

What a great update, Jaye. Right on

Could you post a picture of the little guy? Would love to see him. Smile

Cindy

_________________
Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Jaye
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Join date : 2009-02-19
Location : San Francisco, CA, USA

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PostSubject: Photo Op   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeThu Apr 23, 2009 1:28 pm

Hi...do I have to upload to a web hosting site in order to post a pic here ? I cannot find a "manage attachments" function.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeThu Apr 23, 2009 3:27 pm

No you don't but it is complicated. When you're ready to post your picture, call me and I'll talk you through it.
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeThu Apr 23, 2009 3:58 pm

Matilda wrote:
No you don't but it is complicated.
When you're ready to post your picture, call me and I'll talk you through it.
Thank you, Charis. That's the best way to do it. Smile
Explaining (in a post) how to post photos is extremely confused ing. Oh brother

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Jaye
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Location : San Francisco, CA, USA

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeThu Apr 23, 2009 7:16 pm

Here's the lil' bugger...doing really well today...he has been sunbathing Wink
Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Pal10
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeThu Apr 23, 2009 7:24 pm

What a cutie. Thanks for posting the pic, Jaye. Smile
She's looking great. Great job

Three Hip Hip Hooray for those awesome looking poops.

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeThu Apr 23, 2009 7:29 pm

Bingo...it worked!
The bird looks older that I expected. Looks goo though.
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Jaye
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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeFri Apr 24, 2009 5:04 pm

He had fledged before the attack, we figure.

He is doing really well today, he got to sit in front of the window and watch the ferals on my porch. He really was interested in that...

BTW, the eye facing the camera was the "bad" eye...seems to have made a good recovery.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeFri Apr 24, 2009 5:10 pm



Hard to believe that just a week ago his situation was so dire. He looks great!


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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeFri Apr 24, 2009 9:51 pm

Jaye wrote:
He had fledged before the attack, we figure.

He is doing really well today, he got to sit in front of the window and watch the ferals on my porch. He really was interested in that...

BTW, the eye facing the camera was the "bad" eye...seems to have made a good recovery.
It looks great!!

Is he a releasable?

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Jaye
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Location : San Francisco, CA, USA

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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeSat Apr 25, 2009 7:19 pm

He seems to be. He is enjoying being visited by the ferals, he is lively and aware, he is eating on his own. I am gonna start letting him out for some walkabouts/flyabaouts inside the house, see if he has all of his faculties about him to fly, navigate, etc.

If so, will probably let him go in a few days. If something seems 'off'...I will probably ask for for more suggestions....
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Need some help re: PMV and antibiotics   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeSun Apr 26, 2009 10:18 am

I hope the release goes as planned. Smile
Please do let us know how it goes.

_________________
Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Jaye
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Join date : 2009-02-19
Location : San Francisco, CA, USA

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PostSubject: Released today !   Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2009 11:29 pm

It was a nice warm afternoon, and it's relatively mild this evening. He has been recovering strong, his eye is good, and he has been wanting out of the cage. I have been him in his cage on the porch all week since Sunday (during day) and he hung out w/ the ferals who would come to feed. He was doing all the good signs...eating with them, starling when they startled, etc. A lot of times the ferals would just hang out on top of his cage on the porch....

So this afternoon I opened the door during a feeding, and out he came. Went up to the rooftops soonafter, and hung out there in the sun, preening. Was more cautious to come back down than the rest of the feral gang, but I figure, sure...why wouldn't he be ? Anyway, I observed him hanging out there a while, then I had to go out. Think I saw him up on the neighbors a few hours later.

Am sure I'll be seeing him around....he is in a pretty safe area with a lotta pigeons, and seemed quite strong. Will just have to figure out his bearings and the local society and all. He certainly has good food and water sources.

One more pic taken a couple of nights ago.....

OK, so everyone send your best vibes to Pal (or as my GF calls him, Loopy)....

Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Pal211Need some help re:  PMV and antibiotics Pal310
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