Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!

Well... you could dilute some with equal amounts of water, each day and use that to give them each a drop.

You would want to do it each day as if you made more than the amount you would need for the day, it would loose potency in water.

How are things going, Irene?

Thank you for asking Cindy... Fortunately everything is going well these days! I gave all my birds multivitamins and Calcium and I disolved the multivitamins in the right amount of water, making some calculations as Charis suggested... They all seem much better and more energetic! Even Comis, for the first time in her life, she managed to fly from the floor up to a chair!! Selini, imitating Comis, has become more active too and she is also trying to fly! These two have been disabled since they were little... I thought it was because of their illness or a deformation in their bones, but now I suspect that it may be just a sign of weakness caused by a serious lack of vitamins... Their parents had abandoned them when they were too little and so they were not nourished well... Now, after giving them vitamins and Calium for one week, they seem to have been reborn!! I have also tried to 'convince' my birds to eat more vegetables... I'm giving them defrosted peas and they have started to like them a lot, but they eat them only if I warm them up with hot water, otherwise they 'despice' them, spoilt birds...!

I have some great news to tell you! I'm moving house! I found a new flat that is much bigger than my present one so my birds and my cat will have much more space!

But there is also a little problem...! Some days ago when Meli and Anemoni laid eggs, I tried to replace them with two of the infertile eggs of Halimah and Kirki (who had four eggs in their nest...) but by mistake I mixed up the eggs and I put back to Anemoni's nest one of her own (thinking it was one of Halimah and Kirki's...)! A couple of days ago I realized my mistake because I noticed that one of the eggs looked bigger...! I checked it against the light and I saw a foetus in it!! You can't imagine my 'joy'...!!! I already have too many birds and I didn't want to have more... I thought to break the egg, but I couldn't..!! The foetus had already developed too much...!! I could see the tiny chick inside the egg and my conscience didn't allow me to destroy it... So in a few days I'll have another baby... I feel very sorry for it though, because it won't have a brother or sister to keep it warm... I feel very guilty for having destroyed so many eggs so far because Meli and Anemoni lay eggs every 3-4 weeks... Now I also feel sad for having destroyed the little brother or sister of this poor baby... It will feel lonely because all the other birds have become couples... At least let's hope that it will be healthy... Poor little baby... :-( It shouldn't come to this world at all! It's all my fault...

Irene

Hi Irene,
I'm glad to hear all is going well with you and the pijjies.

It seems we all get an baby now and them.
I will think positive thoughts that this baby is a healthy one.

I'm thrilled to hear you will be moving into a larger flat.
That will be so nice for you and your feathered and furry babies.

Please keep us posted.

Those are difficult choices to make, Irene, but I think I would have done the same.
What else can you do but replace the eggs when you don't have enough room? The pigeons could get very ill if there were too many of them in a very small space, so if I have to chose between the ones I already have and embryos that haven't developed yet, I would concentrate on the existing ones. That's probably how you felt.
Also, like you, most people wouldn't have the heart to remove an egg with a developing embryo inside. Those accidental births get called 'Oops babies', and many of them grow well and are happy even when they do not have a brother or sister. They have their parents' undivided attention, and with mother and father taking turns in the nest, the baby won't get cold, don't worry!

Congratulations on getting a bigger place to live. I hope it will be a very happy home for you, your birds and your cat!

Irene I know exactly how you feel about removing the eggs

Here at our sanctuary I remove eggs all the time & I do feel sad that the pijjies won't ever have the chance to raise a baby BUT I keep remiding myself that by removing the eggs I am keeping space available for a pigeon that has no where else to go.

I used to do just what you did with old eggs, pull them & let them sit for a week or two then use them as dummy eggs... until one of the "old eggs" hatched! Now I pull the eggs & replace them with wooden eggs.

Hi, Irene!

Best wishes for a VERY HAPPY BIRTHDAY and many happy returns of the day!



PS. Don't give all of your birthday cake to the pigeons!!

Hello my dear friends, I'm back again! I've been very busy recently moving my things to the new house and making various arrangements. Hopefully by the end of February I'll have finished everything! Thank you so much for thinking of me and sending me your birthday wishes, it is so touching! A big hug for you!! I have to tell you some news... My 'oops baby' died inside its egg...! I don't know what went wrong... but the last days Anemoni (its mum) stopped incubating the egg and abandoned it... Then she tried to break the egg to eat it!! It was the first time she did something like that to one of her eggs and I realized that something was wrong... Since Anemoni had made a little hole on the shell of the egg, I took it and I broke it to see if there was anything inside... I found the poor baby dead inside the egg... It was fully developed and I could even see its tiny fingers and its delicate white hair but it was dead... I felt very sorry for it and I burried it in a pot of flowers. It is actually better for me and the other birds that it died, because there would not be enough space for it in the cage, but I still felt sorry for it... Poor baby... Who knows why it died...! From now I'll be very careful not to let any other fertilized eggs in the nests of my birds...! Thank you for all your nice messages, your understanding and support!

Lot's of love,
Irene

I'm sorry to hear about the baby, Irene.
It's so hard to say what might have happened.

I'm sure you are very anxious to finally get into your new place.

Hi Irene,

It's possible Anemoni is lacking calcium and broke the egg after the baby died to eat some of the shell.
My Sammy did that too (except that her eggs are infertile, as she is with another hen) because of her calcium deficiency.

Dear friends,

a long time has passed since the last time I wrote to you and it is unbelievable how time flies...! I have been very busy during the last months and I also had various personal problems to resolve which absorbed all my energy... As a result, I withdrew to my own world and I 'disappeared' for a while... However, I have not forgotten you and I kept meaning to write to you to tell you the latest news about my winged babies...

Regarding Comis and Selini (my little pigeons that were ill and I treated according to your good advice) I have very good news to tell you! They recovered completely, both of them, and they have been fine since then!! When they were healed, they also started flying (if you remember little Comis could not fly for many months...) In the end, I found out that Comis was actually a male and not a female (as we thought -because he was very affectionate and he liked kissing my fingers...). When he grew up he started behaving like a typical male, puffing up and showing off in front of the females, cooing all the time to attract attention and so on... He fell in love with Selini, his sister, with whom they had spent their childhood together in the basket where I had put them... (do you remember the photos I used to send you?) and they had two beautiful babies, Kyknos ('Swan') and Margarita ('daisy'), who are both white like their grandmother Anemoni!

As for my feral pigeons, in the end I didn't let them free because I was afraid that my cat Petita who likes spending her time out in the balcony might catch them and eat them... Tenoros, my feral pigeon that suffered from Toxoplasmosis recovered with medicines and he also had babies with his companion Mikroola ('Tiny') because I forgot to remove their eggs... But unfortunately their babies were born deformed and disabled...! One of them had a very retarded growth and it remained tiny and featherless for many weeks and both of them had so distorted feet that they could not even stand...! I was taking care of them but saddly the tiny one died (one day I had brought it out to get some fresh air for a few minutes but the sun killed it and I was extremely sad and couldn't forgive myself...) but the other one, Orfeas, is still alive...! Unfortunately he is disabled and he needs special care but I love him very much and I dedicate a lot of time to him every day... But yesterday I noticed that he has developed 'cysts' around his left eye and on his paralyzed feet and I guess it's Canker... Poor baby, he is so unlucky...!! I started treating him for Canker (with Flagyl) and I must also treat his parents and a few other birds with which Orfeas came in contact... Let's hope that they will also be healed like Comis and Selini...! So I have found myself in the same situation as I was one year ago when I had to treat Comis and Selini... it seems that life is like a circle and it repeats itself... but now I'm more experienced and I know better how to take care of Orfeas... Fortunately all my other pigeons seem to be fine at the moment! And I also have two new guests, two feral pigeons that come to my balcony everyday to meet my birds! My flock is getting bigger and bigger!

I'm sending you a photo of cute Kyknos and Margarita (when they were little), the babies of Comis and Selini (whom YOU saved!)... Comis and his family owe their lives and their happiness to you and I'm also very grateful to you for your precious help!! I'll never forget what you did for them...!

A big hug with lots of love!
Irene

Kyknos and Margarita:

Hi Irene,
It's wonderful to hear from you.

I'm so happy that Comis and Selini are doing well.

I'm sorryto her about Tenoros and Mikroola's babies.
I wonder if the problem stemmed from the illness that Tenoros had.

Is there any way to post a photo of Orfeas' cyst? It's possible the cysts may be pox.
Of course that's not a confirmation, just a thought.

The photo of Kyknos and Margarita is adorable. What a couple of sweeties.

Hi Irene,

Thank you so much for the update, it's great to hear from you and your lovely pigeons! Well done to you, Comis and Selini, for their excellent progress! Give them a kiss from me!

Kyknos and Margarita are adorable, and if they resemble Anemoni they are going to be very beautiful little pidgies!


I thought the same as Cindy, when you mentioned the cysts on Orfeas's eye and foot -- it could also be pox, in which case there is no medication to cure it, but good care and good food will help him to get stronger and overcome the disease. A photo would be a great help.
I'm sorry about Orfeas's sister, poor little baby! The sun wouldn't have killed her for being exposed to it for a matter of minutes, so please don't blame yourself. It sounds like she was very fragile and just wouldn't have survived, no matter what you did. I hope she's happy and free now, in a place where there's no illness and no pain.

I hope all the hard work and inconvenience of moving are behind you now, and that you can relax a bit more and enjoy the company of your growing flock! And please continue to share your adventures.

PS. I just noticed, glancing at the photo, that Kyknos and Margarita form a heart shape against the white background!!!

Dear Cindy and Teresa, thank you so much for your nice messages! Unfortunately today I have terrible news to tell you...! When I came back from work this evening, I found Margarita (who is an adult now) fallen on the floor of her cage and dying!!!! I took her out immediately and she was completely paralyzed, her head was hanging, her eyes were closed and she breathed heavily! I gave her immediately a Baytril antibiotic pill, I tried to give her water and vitamins with a syringe and I put her on a heating pad... She is in a very critical condition, she seems to be in a comma and I don't know if she will survive the night...! I'm extremely worried and I keep praying for her...! I don't know what happened to her!! Yesterday she seemed fine!! It's unbelievable...!! I checked my other pigeons and I found one of my feral pigeons dead!!!! I'm shocked and desperate... It must be an epidemic of a terrible disease but I don't know what it is!! I suspect it may be Selmonella, what do you think? What shall I do now to protect the other birds from a sudden death?? Shall I give Baytril to all of them or another antibiotic? Any ideas? I'm petrified, I cannot even think clearly... I'm extremely sad... I still can't believe what has happened to my babies...!!

Fortunately Orfeas seems ok, his wart started changing colour and becoming a little darker... I'm sending you some photos of him so you can also see his wart and his distorted withered legs... His legs are always crossed, he can't move his toes and his joints are curvy and out of place, poor baby... But he is still so lovely and adorable... I love holding him and cuddling him...























Irene

Hi Irene,

How old is Margarita? Could she be egg bound? The symptoms you described, and developing all of a sudden, can relate to acute lack of calcium, or she could have developed a secondary bacterial infection (Streptococcus, for example) following a long-term disease without visible symptoms, like canker.
It's quite impossible to know what's wrong with her, and with the feral who died, from the information we have, but the antibiotic can't be a bad idea, and if it is Salmonella or e-coli it will work. Give her some Calcium+Vitamin D3 as well. Could you get a vet/nurse to give her an injection of Ivermectin, in case it's gapeworm ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gapeworm )?

Was her weight normal for her age and size? Had she shown any symptoms at all, even mild ones, before this happened? I had a necropsy done on a rescue that died suddenly, to establish the cause of death. He had a virus when I rescued him, then suddenly developed symptoms of pneumonia and I couldn't save him. The cause of death were two types of worms that can't be treated with the normal meds , including oral or spot-on Ivermectin -- gapeworms, that affect the trachea and the lungs, and gizzard worms.
Poor Margarita, I hope she gets better!

About Orfeas, the photos aren't very clear, but there seems to be also a thickening of the eye membrane between his left eye and his forehead, and if that's the case, the symptoms looks identical to a case of pox I saw in one of my ferals lately. The good news is that 10 days later they ha disappeared completely, with no help except good nutrition. When pox lesions burst, they need to be gently cleansed with disinfecting solution.
If it is getting darker, it could be a tumour. Those can sometimes dry and fall off by themselves, but others have to be removed by a vet. You'll need to keep checking its progress.
Canker is also a possibility, but the lesions are normally yellow, and there should be others inside his beak and around the nose area. I think this hypothesis is the least likely.

Orpheas's right leg looks broken. Even the curl of the toes is characteristic of a fractured leg. Is it possible he may have broken it at birth? If his father was ill, as you said, he might have been born with weak bones. Poor baby!
And what's that swollen, bald patch on his left leg? Is it a badly-healed fracture, an infection, or just a sore area from resting on it? If it's the latter, it would help him a lot to put him on a towel rolled up into the shape of a donut, with the legs in the hole and the body supported by the towel.

Charis gave me the sad news that Margarita passed away during the night.
I'm so sorry, Irene!
I know my request is going to sound insensitive at this sad time, but please try and get a necropsy to determine the cause of death -- the information could be a lifeline for your other pigeons.
Rest in peace, little Margarita!

Irene, there may still be a chance to save baby Orfeas's legs: Charis had a look at the photos and said it looked like he's got splayed legs, probably compounded by lack of calcium and a bacterial infection picked up while he was still in the egg.
Splayed legs on babies can be corrected, but only up to a certain age. When the bones harden up it becomes impossible to treat. Have you managed to find a nice vet that you can take him to? If not, we have another member in Italy who may be able to recommend someone, as she's a student of veterinary medicine. Her username here is Gotlin.

I am so very sorry to hear that Margarita has passed away, Irene.
Chuck and I send our sincere condolences.

Teresa wrote:

Irene, there may still be a chance to save baby Orfeas's legs:
Charis had a look at the photos and said it looked like he's got splayed legs, probably compounded by lack of calcium and a bacterial infection picked up while he was still in the egg.
Splayed legs on babies can be corrected, but only up to a certain age. When the bones harden up it becomes impossible to treat. Have you managed to find a nice vet that you can take him to? If not, we have another member in Italy who may be able to recommend someone, as she's a student of veterinary medicine. Her username here is Gotlin.

Little Orfeas definitely has leg issues, but to me splayed legs doesn't seem to be one of them, as they are crossed and appear to be under him, whereas splayed legs point outward and away from each other.

Irene wrote:

Fortunately Orfeas seems ok, his wart started changing colour and becoming a little darker... I'm sending you some photos of him so you can also see his wart and his distorted withered legs... His legs are always crossed, he can't move his toes and his joints are curvy and out of place, poor baby... But he is still so lovely and adorable... I love holding him and cuddling him...

Dear Teresa and Cindy,

thank you once again for your kind, consoling and helpful messages... These days I'm really desperate and extremely worried because a terrible mysterious disease is killing my pigeons and I don't know what to do...! Not only I lost Margarita suddenly and unexpectedly, but I also found Hercules (one of my feral pigeons) already dead in his cage... Then something even worse happened! So terrible that I find it hard even to write it... Selini (the sister of Comis and mother of Margarita, whom you and Charis had saved with your good advice a few months ago...) died too and there was nothing I could do to save her!! She seemed fine, but all of a sudden she became sleepy and she started breathing fast with open beak... I gave her a Baytril pill but she vomited immediately... I put her on a heating pad and I tried to give her liquid food for sick birds and Vefloxa (a wide range antibiotic in liquid form) but she started getting worse and worse very rapidly! She died in a few hours and I was devasted! I was looking desperate for a vet and I called all the vets I found in Venice, but they were all on holidays! I started giving Vefloxa antibiotic to all my birds, which treats all kinds of germs (positive and negative), fungus, infections of the respiratory, digestive, urinary and cutaneous systems, unspecified enteritis and Septicemia. They started to look better and more lively, but my bad luck has no limits... The medicine was finished the day before yesterday (because the bottle was small and there were so many birds to treat) and I could not find any pharmacy open, they were also closed for holidays, so I had to search the whole city and the outskirts of the city to find an open pharmacy and they did not have any medicines for birds! Fortunately they said that they could order Vefloxa for me and that I can have it this afternoon! But the problem is that my birds remained without medicines for 2 days and as soon as they stopped taking the antibiotic, one of them started showing signs of illness! My feral pigeon Ikaros has started coughing endlessly and I'm very worried for him! I could hear him all night long from my room and I couldn't sleep well because of my fear of losing him too! Yesterday another pigeon of mine, Kirki, vomited after eating! Some other pigeons seem sleepy and inactive... I'm afraid that I'm going to lose them all, the one after the other! It's just so awful, I have no words to describe how I'm feeling... I'm so grieved and terrified...

Now I have to go to work, I hope that when I come back home with the medicine, my birds will still be alive... At least Orfeas is getting better! His wart dried and fell off by itself! He has also become stronger and he has started to jump and fly (for a few seconds)! In fact the other day, when I came home after work, I didn't find him in his room!! He had jumped out of the window and he had fallen from the fourth floor!! I thought I had lost him too and I was about to start crying and screaming again, but fortunately I found him in the garden outside the building, he had fallen on a bush, which saved his life!! I brought him back home and he seemed well, he did not even have a scratch, I was so relieved!! But I cannot stop thinking about my pigeons that died and worrying about the rest of them...! What a terrible situation, in fact I was not willing to share this horrible news with you, but since you also care for my babies, I had to tell you the truth, even if it is unpleasant...

Irene

I am so sorry to hear about your birds, Irene.

It does sound like you have something very contagious going on.
In reality, I agree with you, you probably will lose them all unless you are able to get control of what's going on.

You mentioned all the vets were on holiday. Was this just a one day event?
I hope you are able to get one of your birds into see one of them as soon as possible.

I will be thinking the most positive thoughts for you and your precious birds.

Please do keep us posted.

Hi Cindy,

unfortunately most of the shops and public services here in Italy close for 'holidays' from the middle of August until the end of the month, it's just terrible... Even the Pharmacies close and if anyone needs a medicine has to go very far to find a open pharmacy... As for the vets, most of them treat only cat and dogs and when I call them they just tell me directly that they are unable to help me... I have found about 5-6 avian vets near Venice but they are all on holidays except for one! I wanted to take one of my dead birds to him for a necropsy, but his medical studio is in a small village and there was no bus going there (as I was told at the bus ticket office)! Unfortunately I don't have a car and I don't even know how to drive...! I had asked a friend who has a car to give me a lift but she was too busy... I called that vet again to ask him until what time he would be open and he told me that in an hour he would also close for holidays...! So I lost my hope... However, I'm thinking to collect samples of my birds' droppings so as to bring them to one of the vets that will return from her holidays in a few days... Let's see what comes out of that...!

Today I got the antibiotic Vefloxa which I had ordered and I started giving it to my birds again... I also cleaned thoroughly and disinfected their cages and the room they are in. I washed even the walls! Ikaros who was coughing endlessly last night, right now seems a little better, he stopped coughing so much, although he still seems to have breathing problems and he keeps his beak open... I hope the antibiotic helps them all! I'm wondering whether I should also give them Flagyl for Canker but I'm afraid that it may interact with the other medicine and cause them side effects... so I'm not sure...

Most of my birds' droppings are very watery and greenish... They look like a lake with tiny pieces floating... Some others have diarrhea (but it may be because they are incubating eggs -fake ones of course!). Ikaros' droppings look 'normal' but they are a little slimy and their foam is bright white and forms tiny rice-like bits... I just hope that the vet who will examine their droppings may be able to find out what their disease is... I'll let you know how the situation evolves...

Irene

OMG Irene, what a nightmare! Poor, poor birds! And Sellini too...

Portugal also seems to 'close down' for holidays in August, but at least they work out some sort of rota, so that essential care is still available. I hope you will be able to find someone who will help.

Vefloxa is very strong stuff! I checked up its active ingredient, Norfloxacin, and the side effects, as well as the range of interaction with other drugs, are very worrying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfloxacin
PM me your address, I'll get some Baytril and Flagyl on the post to you -- at least with those two, you know they don't interact with each other. Between them, they will cover primary and secondary infections, and canker, but we still don't know what's behind all that.

From the symptoms you described, the difficulty in breathing and listelessness stand out, and that could be caused by a blockage (canker or worms) or a respiratory infection, but there's likely to be other problems as well. You really need to get someone to find the cause(s).
Keeping the poops for several days won't work, as the pathogenic agents will be long dead by then. If you have the courage to do it, it would be better to keep one of the pigeons who died in the freezer until a vet can do a necropsy. At least, even if the bacteria or whatever are dead by then, the vet will be able to make a diagnosis from observing the damage they did, and where they were located.

I hope there will be no more fatalities. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your pigeons.