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 Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!

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Irene
Special Pigeon Angel


Posts : 132
Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 46
Location : Venice, Italy

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitimeMon Sep 05, 2011 12:32 pm

Teresa, I didn't p1ace Ha1imah with a c0up1e... In the beginning there were tw0 c0up1es in a very big cage and they g0t 0n we11 t0gether... They were 4 sisters: Ha1imah and Kirki, Arapina and Stacht0b00ta, they had gr0wn up t0gether and they never had any pr0b1ems with each 0ther... Ha1imah was very attached t0 Kirki and Arapina was very attached t0 Stacht0b00ta, but when Stacht0b00ta died, Kirki [Ha1imah's c0mpani0n] abband0ned Ha1imah and became Arapina's c0mpani0n! Ha1imah started t0 hate her and attack her... It was n0t ME wh0 separated the c0up1es and caused c0nfusi0n between the sisters but the tragic death 0f Stacht0b00ta...! I h0pe y0u are n0t angry with me... When I saw that Ha1imah attacked Kirki, I t00k her 0ut 0f the cage and I put her in an0ther cage a10ne but she is desperate and she wants t0 g0 back t0 her p1ace... she is n0t used t0 be a10ne... I fee1 very s0rry f0r her... I a1s0 fee1 s0rry f0r C0mis, because he is a1s0 10ne1y after the death 0f Se1ini... If my birds manage t0 0verc0me this terrib1e disease, I wi11 put C0mis and Ha1imah t0gether, but first I have t0 wait f0r severa1 weeks t0 make sure they are we11! [C0mis is very i11 and I d0n't kn0w if he wi11 survive, but I keep my h0pe because t0day he seems better...]

As f0r Dydim0s, I had put him t0gether with Hercu1es and Mira 0n1y because I th0ught that he w0u1d be sad t0 be a10ne [1ike Ha1imah is n0w...]. He seemed very happy t0 f1irt with Mira, just as Hercu1es a1s0 did... When I put them t0gether, Mira was n0t the c0mpani0n 0f any 0f them, s0 b0th ma1es had the same chances t0 get her attenti0n and in the end Hercu1es w0n, but Dydim0s sti11 f1irted with her... When p00r Hercu1es died, he g0t Mira f0r himse1f... I had put th0se 3 birds t0gether with0ut kn0wing which 0f them were ma1e and which fema1e, and they didn't fight s0 I had 1et them stay t0gether... 0ther birds 0f mine that attacked each 0ther I separated them immediate1y even bef0re I received any advice fr0m any0ne... I w0u1d never put aggressive birds t0gether...

I kn0w that my birds have fee1ings [a11 anima1s have fee1ings!], I just c0u1dn't imagine that they c0u1d fee1 betrayed and jea10us and h01d a grudge against each 0ther 1ike humans... that's a11... I d0n't kn0w why y0u say that I disregard what is written in this thread... I a1ways take every0ne's advice very seri0us1y and I try t0 f0110w it... Why w0u1d I write a11 these messages here if I didn't need advice 0r I didn't care ab0ut what 0ther pe0p1e t01d me...? I respect every0ne and I appreciate a11 the rep1ies I receive, but s0metimes I think that perhaps 0ther pe0p1e d0n't understand h0w much I care f0r my birds and they think negative1y ab0ut me... Anyway, the imp0rtant thing is that my birds get a11 the attenti0n and he1p they deserve..! A11 these messages are f0r them...
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Teresa
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Teresa

Posts : 5381
Join date : 2009-07-23
Location : Portugal

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitimeMon Sep 05, 2011 5:59 pm

Sorry Irene, I misunderstood the situation and thought you had placed the three sisters together. So I thought you hadn't considered the advice that it was a bad idea and stressful for the pigeons.
If you had the four there and one died, of course that would leave the three. Very occasionally it can work, like it did with Cindy's pigeons, where the father adopted the widowed daughter as a second wife. But more often than not they fight and get very unhappy. Three is not a good number for relationships, whether they're humans or pigeons.
As for their feelings, as you are observing they are just as complex and overwhelming as our own, have no doubt about it. Jealousy, insecurity, aggressiveness and suspicion, as well as love, dedication, trust and delight. They even mourn their dead.


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Irene
Special Pigeon Angel


Posts : 132
Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 46
Location : Venice, Italy

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitimeFri Sep 09, 2011 4:51 pm

It's 0k Teresa, I'm g1ad y0u underst00d the situati0n better, I had n0t exp1ained it very we11 in the beginning. I'm a1s0 g1ad that the 3 pige0ns 0f Cindy are getting 0n we11 t0gether s0 that b0th fema1es have a 10ving c0mpani0n and n0ne 0f the birds is 10ne1y. Indeed they have c0mp1ex fee1ings, I wish a11 pe0p1e c0u1d understand that, especia11y my crue1 ex neighb0urs wh0 hated pige0ns and tried t0 p0is0n them... Such pe0p1e are crimina1s and they d0n't even kn0w it...

Anyway, here is the 1atest news ab0ut my birds: C0mis is getting better and better! He is eating and drinking n0rma11y and he makes unc0ntr011ab1e m0vements 1ess 0ften... I c0ntinue t0 feed him defr0sted peas, 1iquid f00d f0r sick birds, a dr0p 0f mu1tivitamins direct1y int0 his beak and he a1s0 eats mixed seeds by himse1f! 1et's h0pe he rec0vers c0mp1ete1y!

Unf0rtunate1y tw0 0ther birds started having the sympt0ms 0f PMV [T0x0p1asm0sis]: Kykn0s [the br0ther 0f p00r Margarita wh0 died] and Lign0s wh0 is in the same cage with Kykn0s... Kykn0s [wh0 I suspect is actua11y a fema1e and I decided t0 ca11 her Hi0nati which means 'Sn0w-white'] has very 1ight sympt0ms: c0nfusi0n and s0me strange m0vements, but Lign0s has g0t PMV in its w0rst f0rm!! His head is turning ar0und 1ike a venti1at0r[!!], he can't wa1k straight and he keeps fa11ing fr0m the bar where he tries t0 perch... H0wever, he is sti11 eating and drinking and he is sti11 1ive1y! I started hand-feeding Hi0nati and Lign0s and giving them vitamins as I d0 with C0mis and they remain in a stab1e c0nditi0n... I rea11y d0n't kn0w what t0 expect... It seems as if the virus has started t0 10se its p0wer...! In the beginning it ki11ed my birds very sudden1y and quick1y [in just a few h0urs!] and there was n0thing I c0u1d d0 t0 save them, n0t even the medicines seemed t0 w0rk... but it seems that n0w is under c0ntr01, and even th0ugh m0re birds have bec0me i11, the disease hasn't ki11ed any m0re 0f them, at 1east n0t yet... Perhaps the virus has had a mutati0n and changed f0rm 0r it simp1y weakened, I d0n't kn0w h0w and why but I'm very happy f0r that!!! I keep disinfecting the r00m and the cages 0f my birds, I have transferred s0me birds t0 0ther r00ms and I'm d0ing everything I can t0 st0p the disease fr0m spreading m0re...

Anem0ni, wh0se eye1id was sw011en is fine n0w, but her dr0ppings are s0urr0unded by a 10t 0f water and they are green s0 I suspect that she has a1s0 g0t the virus, a1th0ugh she just d0esn't sh0w any sympt0ms yet... I give her vitamins and I h0pe she d0esn't bec0me i11 t00...

As f0r Ha1imah, I fina11y put her back with Kirki and Arapina, because she was desperate and she didn't want t0 be a10ne... She f0rgave Kirki , her ex-c0mpani0n, and she d0esn't attack her anym0re, they have made peace...

I'm sti11 waiting f0r the resu1ts 0f the aut0psy, I h0pe t0 get them next week...

Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 983488 Irene
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Teresa
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Teresa

Posts : 5381
Join date : 2009-07-23
Location : Portugal

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitimeSat Sep 10, 2011 3:39 pm

Irene wrote:
Unf0rtunate1y tw0 0ther birds started having the sympt0ms 0f PMV [T0x0p1asm0sis]

PMV and Toxoplasmosis are totally different things, and I'm starting to understand why it was that in the past you mentioned a pigeon that had toxoplasmosis and walked in circles, and nobody could figure out why you were sure he had toxoplasmosis, when the symptoms didn't fit:
http://www.pigeonangels.com/t2529-a-feral-pigeon-with-toxoplasmosis
Note also that Anniebirdy supplied you with a link to PMV, as clearly she thought that's what Tenoros might have. But seeing how he recovered very quickly with antibiotics, it's more likely he was suffering from Salmonella, or else he had a mild form of the virus that didn't show neurological symptoms for long.

PMV, or PPMV1 is, as you know, a viral disease, Pigeon Paramyxovirosis. The course of the disease is usually 6 weeks, and after that the pigeons are no longer contagious, but the symptoms can continue for a long time, or even for the rest of their lives.

Toxoplasmosis is caused by an intestinal parasite of cats, and can infect other pets and even humans. It is only in the body of the cat that the parasite can take on the form that will infect other species -- which is to say, one infected pigeon cannot infect another, even if he carries the disease.

So... it sounds as though your pigeons could have PMV after all (remembering that Salmonella and brain worms can also cause those symptoms). If that's the case, we're back to the previous discussion, in that the virus won't kill a pigeon by itself, it's the secondary infections that do that, taking advantage of the fact that the pigeon's immune system has been weakened and can't fight infections. Either that death by dehydration and starvation when they can't eat or drink properly by themselves.

I hope you get the results soon.

What does Italian law say about PMV, did your vet tell you? In some countries, 'Newcastle Disease' has to be reported to the authorities and in some cases pigeons have been put down, even though PPMV1 is not the strain that was killing poultry.

Also, consider that it's often a vet's reaction to have birds euthanised when they are diagnosed with PMV, mostly because many still think it's fatal. I was advised to do that with my Sammy, but refused. (She's the one in the video link I posted.) She had a particularly virulent form, and the vet thought she might also have had concussion. She needed to be hand fed for seven months, and nowadays she still has fits sometimes when she gets nervous or excited, but she's very much alive and has a decent quality of life.

IF it is PMV, your best course of action is to continue to monitor them to see if they show signs of bacterial or parasitic infections, and treat them as needed. Very important, once a course of antibiotics, Flagyl or whatever is started, it should continue for, at least, 5 days. To stop before that is disastrous, and will increase the resistance of the disease to the antibiotics.
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Irene
Special Pigeon Angel


Posts : 132
Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 46
Location : Venice, Italy

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitimeMon Sep 12, 2011 12:46 pm

Teresa, thank y0u s0 much f0r exp1aining t0 me everything s0 we11! I actua11y th0ught that PMV and T0x0p1asm0sis were the same thing and that PMV was the name 0f the virus and T0x0p1asm0sis the name 0f the disease that it caused... N0w I rea1ise I was wr0ng...

My pige0ns must have PMV because they have the characteristic neur010gica1 sympt0ms... C0mis has been i11 f0r tw0 weeks n0w, but it seems that his c0nditi0n is gradua11y impr0ving! Hi0nati has very 1ight sympt0ms, which are hard1y n0ticeab1e, whi1e Lign0s has the m0st intense 0nes... H0wever, even Lign0s seems 'a1right', he is 1ive1y and he is eating and drinking n0rma11y despite his unc0ntr011ab1e m0vements... I have put a deep b0w1 0f mixed seeds f0r him and a1th0ugh he scatters them a11 ar0und, he manages t0 eat we11 en0ugh! I a1s0 hand feed him defr0sted peas as I a1s0 d0 with C0mis and Hi0nati...

S0me days ag0 I had given the vet samp1es 0f the dr0ppings 0f ALL my birds f0r an ana1ysis and yesterday she t01d me that 0nce again [1ike in the first test 0f Stacht0b00ta's dr0ppings] n0 parasites, c0ccidia 0r w0rms were f0und... If they had w0rms in the brain w0u1dn't they 1eave traces in their dr0ppings? W0u1d they remain hidden? And h0w c0u1d they get w0rms in the brain? That s0unds rea11y scary...!!

The vet is sure that we are dea1ing with a virus... I think that in the beginning it may have been indeed Newcast1e disease because it was t00 c0ntagi0us and fata1 and it ki11ed my p00r birds in just a few h0urs, but n0w it seems t0 me that it has changed f0rm and has bec0me 1ess p0werfu1 s0 n0w it appears 1ike a 1ight-medium f0rm 0f PMV... I think it is un1ike1y t0 be Sa1m0ne11a because I was giving antibi0tics t0 a11 my birds but this didn't prevent the disease fr0m spreading... Sa1m0ne11a is caused by bacteria, right? S0 if it was that, the antibi0tics w0u1d have pr0bab1y e1iminated it, w0u1dn't they?

I h0pe the vet 0r the auth0rities d0n't ask me t0 put d0wn my p00r birds because I wi11 never accept!! They w0u1d have t0 ki11 ME first t0 be ab1e t0 d0 that!! I'm w0rried... I h0pe they d0n't c0me t0 ki11 my babies against my wi11...! If they te11 me s0mething 1ike that, I wi11 say that my birds have 'a1ready died' and I h0pe they be1ieve me and 1eave me in peace!! I'11 have t0 d0 s0mething t0 pr0tect them...

I'm rea11y g1ad that y0ur Sammy rec0vered after a11 she went thr0ugh and she has a happy 1ife n0w! That's rea11y w0nderfu1 and very enc0uraging!! I h0pe my p00r birds 0verc0me this terrib1e disease t00!

As f0r the antibi0tics I had given Vef10xa t0 a11 my birds f0r 0ne week... I a1s0 treated i11 C0mis with F1agy1 f0r Canker but since the vet t01d me that n0 parasites were f0und in the dr0ppings 0f my birds I didn't give F1agy1 t0 the 0ther birds... Tw0 days ag0 I started giving Anem0ni an0ther circ1e 0f Vef10xa Antibi0tics because she seemed unwe11 and she was making swa110wing m0vements and kept her beak 0pen and her dr0ppings were t00 watery and bright green...! F0rtunate1y after the first d0se 0f the medicine she started breathing n0rma11y again and n0w the dark parts 100k m0re s01id and 1ess green but sti11 her dr0ppings are very watery and I'm w0rried that there is definete1y s0mething wr0ng with her... H0wever, her behavi0ur seems 'n0rma1', a1th0ugh s0metimes she 100ks a 1itt1e miserab1e... I watch her carefu11y every day t0 see h0w the situati0n ev01ves...

Here are s0me m0re ph0t0s 0f my p00r birds:

P00r C0mis after the death 0f Se1ini, his c0mpani0n... He stayed in a c0rner and he 100ked very sad and 10ne1y... A few days 1ater he started having the sympt0ms 0f PMV... F0rtunate1y n0w he is much better!
Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Dsc02512

I11 Hi0nati, the daugher 0f C0mis and Se1ini and sister 0f p00r Margarita wh0 died... Unf0rtunate1y her unc0ntr011ab1e m0vements have bec0me a 1itte m0re intense and n0w she has difficu1ty in perching 0n the bar...
Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Dsc02516

Me1i, my first pige0n and father 0f a11, wh0 is the 0ne I 10ve m0st, is having a wa1k in my 1ivingr00m... I transferred him t0 the 1ivingr00m t0 keep him away fr0m the 0ther birds, s0 as n0t t0 catch the disease t00... He is actua11y very happy f0r that and he 10ves exp10ring the h0use and eating my carpet...! :-)
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Teresa
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Teresa

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitimeMon Sep 12, 2011 9:44 pm

Irene wrote:

S0me days ag0 I had given the vet samp1es 0f the dr0ppings 0f ALL my birds f0r an ana1ysis and yesterday she t01d me that 0nce again [1ike in the first test 0f Stacht0b00ta's dr0ppings] n0 parasites, c0ccidia 0r w0rms were f0und... If they had w0rms in the brain w0u1dn't they 1eave traces in their dr0ppings? W0u1d they remain hidden? And h0w c0u1d they get w0rms in the brain? That s0unds rea11y scary...!!
The problem with fecal samples is that they only show what's in the digestive system of a bird. So if there is an infection somewhere else, they don't show it. And even some of those that are in the digestive system can be difficult to see, especially canker, because the protozoans only stay alive for a very short time in the droppings (about half an hour, I think). As protozoans are identified by their motion, once they die and, of course, stop moving, they're almost impossible to distinguish from some other cells.
It's different with necropsies, which show the damage (necrotic areas, etc) caused by the infectious agent, and can tell what type of infection it is, whether it's bacteria, viruses, protozoans or worms. Then to find out which species it is, the parasitologist has to make a culture: grow the agent in an appropriate medium until there are enough to identify properly. The necropsies will give you much more information than the fecal tests.
The worms that can migrate to the brain are Capillaria, also called thread worms or hair worms, and as the name suggests, they are very, very fine.

Quote :
I think that in the beginning it may have been indeed Newcast1e disease because it was t00 c0ntagi0us and fata1 and it ki11ed my p00r birds in just a few h0urs, but n0w it seems t0 me that it has changed f0rm and has bec0me 1ess p0werfu1 s0 n0w it appears 1ike a 1ight-medium f0rm 0f PMV...
The virus can't mutate like that. It is either one type or the other, and it takes many, many months and many generations of virus to produce a different mutation. Don't forget that pigeons can't get NVD, only PMV. But there are another three types of viruses that, not having such a bad reputation as PMV, can cause absolute devastation, especially when birds suffer from more than one type of viral infection. Look at this, from 'Pigeons', by M.M.Wriends and T.E. Erskine:

Adenovirus, herpesvirus, and circovirus may very well work in coordination to destroy a bird's immune defenses. Birds with herpesvirus may die within 24 hours or linger for days or weeks, then recover fully. Adenovirus usually infects only immuno-suppressed birds, and the death rate can be as high as 30%. Circovirus infection is spread by oral and nasal discharges and in the droppings. It can quickly lead to death in pigeons that appear perfectly normal.
Pigeons should have no internal or external parasites, which... may contribute to the spread of the disease. General cleanliness and routine treatment can control these problems quite easily, and completely.


From your description of recent symptoms, it does look like your pigeons have one or more types of virus.
I can't remember if you still have Tenoros, but if this is indeed a viral disease, he should show no symptoms at all, because he's already had it. PMV survivors become resistant to the disease for life.

Quote :
I think it is un1ike1y t0 be Sa1m0ne11a because I was giving antibi0tics t0 a11 my birds but this didn't prevent the disease fr0m spreading... Sa1m0ne11a is caused by bacteria, right? S0 if it was that, the antibi0tics w0u1d have pr0bab1y e1iminated it, w0u1dn't they?
The antibiotics SHOULD have eliminated Salmonella, if it was present, BUT Norfloxacin, the active ingredient of the antibiotic you've got, is not very effective against Salmonella:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2732641
Baytril is much better, and even then some cases can be very difficult to treat. My rescue Noel was on Baytril for 3 weeks, and then Clindamycin for another 3 weeks before the Salmonella finally disappeared. But of course, nobody would keep a pigeon on antibiotics for so long if they weren't sure of what exactly the disease was.

Quote :
I h0pe the vet 0r the auth0rities d0n't ask me t0 put d0wn my p00r birds because I wi11 never accept!!
There are two things you can do. First, find out what the law says about that where you live. If they are likely to have strict measures against NDV (and by that they usually mean type 2) tell them what I told you, that pigeons don't have that, they can only get PPMV1, which is a subtype of NDV type 6, harmless to other species. Refuse to part with any of your pigeons until an independent lab has confirmed that they have NDV type 2. (Which they can't do, because your pigeons won't have it!)

Quote :
I h0pe my p00r birds 0verc0me this terrib1e disease t00!
So do I!!!! When it comes to viruses, some birds will always be more affected than others. The resistance to the disease depends on how strong their immune system is, so good food, clean water, clean cages, no stress, vitamins and calcium+vitamin D3 (this boosts the nervous system, and is VERY beneficial to PMV sufferers) are the best defense. And, of course, the need to keep the sick birds separated from the healthy ones.

Quote :
As f0r the antibi0tics I had given Vef10xa t0 a11 my birds f0r 0ne week... I a1s0 treated i11 C0mis with F1agy1 f0r Canker but since the vet t01d me that n0 parasites were f0und in the dr0ppings 0f my birds I didn't give F1agy1 t0 the 0ther birds... Tw0 days ag0 I started giving Anem0ni an0ther circ1e 0f Vef10xa Antibi0tics because she seemed unwe11 and she was making swa110wing m0vements and kept her beak 0pen and her dr0ppings were t00 watery and bright green...! F0rtunate1y after the first d0se 0f the medicine she started breathing n0rma11y again and n0w the dark parts 100k m0re s01id and 1ess green but sti11 her dr0ppings are very watery and I'm w0rried that there is definete1y s0mething wr0ng with her... H0wever, her behavi0ur seems 'n0rma1', a1th0ugh s0metimes she 100ks a 1itt1e miserab1e... I watch her carefu11y every day t0 see h0w the situati0n ev01ves...
Those sound like canker symptoms, Irene. And where ther's canker, infection and fungus follow. The antibiotic will fight the infection, but not the rest. Difficulty in breathing is characteristic of a canker nodule pressing on the windpipe, and if the nodule grows it can choke the bird to death. If it was me, I would start her on Flagyl, 25-30mg a day, for a week. Look inside her beak and throat for any signs of lumps, and also feel her neck and crop for lumps. Make sure that her crop doesn't feel like a balloon, filled with air, and that it doesn't have liquid hours after the last meal. If any or all of those signs are present, don't hesitate and put her on antibiotic + Flagyl + Nystatin, feed her little and often (no seeds, just formula and/or baby apple dessert) and keep her warm.
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Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitimeThu Sep 15, 2011 3:59 pm

Dear Teresa,

thank you so much for all the information, explanations and advice that you gave me, which are very helpful indeed! Today I received a letter with the results of the necropsy of poor Orfeas and Stachtoboota! It's really strange but no viruses, protozoa or worms were found! But both birds were positive to E.Coli and the bacteriologic examination of Orfeas showed that he was also 'Polimicrobism Positive' (which I have no idea what it means...) Here is the conclusion of the necropsy: ''Both subjects present crops noticeably full of food. Food was found also in the oral cavity. Bowels with yellowish content. Blocked fecal passage. Stuffed liver'' At the end of the letter there is a list of medicines to which E.Coli is sensitive and others to which is resistant, so it reads: SENSITIVE TO: Amikacina, Aminosidina, Cefalosporine III Generation (Ceftiofur), Colistina, Furazolidone. Gentamicina; INTERMEDIUM: Amoxillina + Clavulanic acid, Spiramicina; RESISTANT TO: Ampicillina / Amoxicillina, Chinoloni I Generation, Chinoloni II Generation, Spectinomicina, Sulfamidico, Sulfamidico + Trimethoprim, Tetracicline.

Tomorrow I will take the letter to the vet and ask her what is the right medicine to give to my birds... However, it is really strange that no viruses where found although Comis, Lignos and Hionati have the symptoms of PMV (or Selmonella)... However, all 3 birds are getting better!

As for Tenoros, who had PMV symptoms in the past, is fine now and doesn't show any sign of illness, as you guessed...

Anemoni is lively and she is eating and drinking normally but her droppings continue to be very watery although I'm giving her antibiotics... At least, the dark parts stopped being green and seem more normal now... Her crop also seems normal... I'm wondering whether I should change her antibiotics and start giving her Baytril indead of Vefloxa... Shall I start giving her Flagyl as well at the same time, or is it too much and I should wait to finish the course of the antibiotic first? She must take the antibiotic for another 2 days (to complete a week)...

As for Adenovirus, Herpesvirus and Circovirus, I didn't know about them and thank you for mentioning them! Fortunately, the results of the necropsy of my birds show that they were 'Circovirus negative'...

I'm so glad that your Noel overcame Selmonella and the long treatment with antibiotics worked well! Let's hope my birds survive too, whatever their illness is... I'm actually building some nice huge cages for them, with a plastic net at the basement and newspapers in a drawer underneath, so as not to have to use sand for birds anymore, which becomes dust and facilitates the spreading of diseases... In this way the cages will be cleaner...

Meanwhile, Meli is still enjoying his time in my living room... He loves sitting on my sofa next to Teddy bear, isn't he cute?Smile
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Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 983488 Irene
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Teresa
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Teresa

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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitimeThu Sep 15, 2011 4:42 pm

Thanks for the update, Irene!

I was also perplexed by the necropsy results.
So... e-coli! This one is always present in the guts of pigeons and most other animals, and its numbers often go out of control after interrupted courses of antibiotics, or courses of antibiotics which kill the competition, leaving only the e-coli to multiply. Strange, though, as e-coli is not usually a killer, much less a fast killer!
'Polymicrobism positive' must refer to 'Polymicrobial positive', which means he tested positive to a large number of species of bacteria, which were not individually identified (so Salmonella could still be a possible cause) but how come the antibiotic didn't do its job?????

Whatever it was, it clearly ruined their liver and intestines, destroying the intestinal mucosa to the point that they couldn't absorb the food. And it's a shame they didn't say what ws the cause for the fecal passage blockage, or even what caused the liver to be enlarged...
Did they mention which organs they examined?
Was the necropsy report written in English, or did you translate it? If possible, I would like to see the full text of it (a photo of the report would be fine, so you don't have to spend ages typing it) even if it's in Italian.

Their recommendation as for the best type of antibiotic to use is very useful, but I notice they didn't mention either Enrofloxacin (Baytril) or Ciprofloxacin, the two broad-spectrum antibiotics which have proved most effective against systemic bacterial infections. Synulox (Clavamox + Clavulanic acid) is only in the intermediate rank, but it should still prove more effective than Vefloxa.

I think I would take the risk and change Anemoni over to Baytril + Flagyl, as 5 days on an antibiotic is the minimum course duration for most. And if your other birds died of a multiple bacterial infection, then the Vefloxa didn't protect them enough.

It is possible that not all of your pigeons had the same disease(s). If Comis, Lignos and Hionati had PMV-like symptoms and they're getting better without a Salmonella-specific antibiotic, then the most likely explanation is that they HAD PMV. As I said, most birds get over it by themselves, so long as their immune system is strong enough -- and Tenoros wouldn't be affected at all, and you say he wasn't.

I hope your vet will have some more answers for you.

Well done on your plans to improve the pigeons' living conditions! I agree with you that newspapers sound safer than the sand substrate.
And Meli appears to be having wonderful time! Happy
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Irene
Special Pigeon Angel


Posts : 132
Join date : 2010-05-01
Age : 46
Location : Venice, Italy

Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitimeFri Sep 16, 2011 1:56 am

Hi Teresa,

it's true that the results of the necropsy are not very enlightening... what a shame... The letter is in Italian and I'll send you a copy that I made through my scanner... let's hope the letters don't appear blurred or too little... It is written that they examined their intestines, stomach, liver, fecal material, and an 'organ' (without saying which one)...

I'll change Anemoni's medicacation and start giving her Baytril and Flagyl as you suggested, let's hope it works! I'll also ask the vet's opinion...

I hope to finish the new cages soon so as to improve their living conditions! I'm sure they will be very happy to have more space to move, beautiful nests and a clean floor without dirty sand...! Let's hope that in this way virus and bacteria will stay out of their cages!

Here is the copy of the letter in Italian, I hope you understand it! I have deleted my address on it so as not to be visible to other people on the internet. If there are any unknown words, I'll translate them for you:

Page 1:
Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Necrop10

Page 2:
Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Necrop11

Have a nice day!
Irene
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PostSubject: Re: Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!   Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill! - Page 14 Icon_minitime

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