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 Swollen eyelids

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Grimaldy



Posts : 10
Join date : 2010-11-05

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PostSubject: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 1:39 pm

I picked up a squeaker two weeks ago that broke out with swollen eyelids yesterday. The bird is listless, standing up in one place, not fluffed, no stringey mucus in the throat, no yellow adhesion in the throat, with small puddled droppings about the size of a dime, foamy egg yellow, with a small fecal patch in the middle of it. It seemed to be eating well before this appeared.I had paired this bird up with another squeaker to teach the other to eat and separated them two days before this episode. This bird is about a week older. The other squeaker is fully fledged in, doing great. This one, the sick one, still has bare patches under the wings.
There is no exudate from the eyes, pus or running liquid, they have just swollen closed. Occasionally it will open one eye to see its food dish. This morning it started with the bird "gag reaction" as though it was trying to clear its throat, but stopped.

The bird has been on Amoxycillin/Tylosin for two days and I started Doxycycline last night as well. Dosages taken from the Merck formulary. The bird stands up, on a heating pad in its box. No visible improvement.

This is the second bird I picked with these symptoms this year. The last one was an adult, eyes swollen shut, down on the street. Gram stain gave up Campylobacter, but no result with antibiotic or Metronidazole. Death in 72 hours.

Any ideas anyone?
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 1:43 pm

Doxi does make birds feel ill and they vomit as a result...at least evey bird I have put on doxi gets ill.
How much does the bird weigh and what dose of metronidazole did you use?
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Grimaldy



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Join date : 2010-11-05

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 1:53 pm

This sick squeaker weighs in at 180 grams. I did not give him Metronidazole because it did not prove to be effective on the adult that I had caught earlier in the year with the same symptoms. Dose on it was 200-250 mg/kg PO QD.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:02 pm

Do you have any ciprofloxacin ?
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Grimaldy



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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:05 pm

Yes I do.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:16 pm

Try the cipro then, rather than the doxi.
The possibility remains that the bird is suffering with more than I just one thing and adding metronidazole to the treatment plan could be benificial, as canker may be developing in the sinus area . I would keep the bird hydrated with subQ fluids.
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Grimaldy



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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:23 pm

Will do!

There is certainly something else going on somewhere. I started force feeding 20ml KayTee day before yesterday with no corresponding fecal output. The foamy white dropping suggests catabolism to me, but there is a small amount of fecal matter, not in proportion to what it should be.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:29 pm

The crop empties?
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Grimaldy



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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:34 pm

Yes, the crop empties right down.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:35 pm

Have you wormed the bird?
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Grimaldy



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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:43 pm

I have no luck with the parasite meds currently available; they all seem to kill healthy birds even with attenuated dosages. A quick peek under a microscope at low power is safer and quicker.
I have killed some wonderful little birds with the cr** they sell for worming.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:45 pm

The reason I asked is because a large worm kill can create a blockage and cause bacterial infection.
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Grimaldy



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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 2:59 pm

The possibility of worms, or a large tapeworm, is a consideration. I don't know what could be done about it until the bird's condition stabilizes though. A pigeon's intestine is so short that I would have expected to see segments in the fecal output before now, though.

Your suggestion that an infection of the sinus may be present, which has some contribution to the eye swelling, is a good one. Ciprofloxacin should have enough penetration to get it if there is still time. As long as there is fecal output in some degree I guess we will have to assume no complete obstruction of the GI tract and deal with that later.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 5:41 pm

That's the off things about worms...unless you examine each and every dropping, under a microscope, you won't find worms or eggs in just one dropping. There can be more than one type of worm too.
I've told the story many times about observing a worm exiting my dogs bottom. To be absolutely certain, I took a sample to the vet. The vet was unable to find any evidence of worms and so the sample was sent to a lab for further analysis. The lab found no evidence of worms either. I know what I saw and wormed the dog.
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NiteOwl
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NiteOwl

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 8:53 pm

I agree. Worms are often missed when the droppings are checked, then you worm the bird and there they are.
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Teresa
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Teresa

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 9:12 pm

I haven't treated any bird with swollen eyelids, so I looked up the symptom and, according to Chevita, itcould either be caused by canker or infectious catarrh. From what you say, the other symptoms of catarrh are absent, so canker may be the main culprit.
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php

There is another thread here that may be of interest to you, concerning a squeaker with one eyelid so swollen the eye appeared to be missing. This one had canker.
http://www.pigeonangels.com/pigeon-rescue-suspect-injury-f6/squeaker-with-missing-eye-t1780.htm?highlight=missing+eye
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NiteOwl
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NiteOwl

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 9:19 pm

Teresa wrote:
I haven't treated any bird with swollen eyelids, so I looked up the symptom and, according to Chevita, itcould either be caused by canker or infectious catarrh. From what you say, the other symptoms of catarrh are absent, so canker may be the main culprit.
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php

There is another thread here that may be of interest to you, concerning a squeaker with one eyelid so swollen the eye appeared to be missing. This one had canker.
http://www.pigeonangels.com/pigeon-rescue-suspect-injury-f6/squeaker-with-missing-eye-t1780.htm?highlight=missing+eye

I went and looked after you said that. Interesting. I didn't know that canker could cause that.
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AZWhitefeather
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AZWhitefeather

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Location : Arizona Southwestern United States

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeFri Nov 05, 2010 10:42 pm

Teresa wrote:
I haven't treated any bird with swollen eyelids, so I looked up the symptom and, according to Chevita, itcould either be caused by canker or infectious catarrh. From what you say, the other symptoms of catarrh are absent, so canker may be the main culprit.
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php

There is another thread here that may be of interest to you, concerning a squeaker with one eyelid so swollen the eye appeared to be missing. This one had canker.
http://www.pigeonangels.com/pigeon-rescue-suspect-injury-f6/squeaker-with-missing-eye-t1780.htm?highlight=missing+eye

I was just rereading the initial post and the possibility of canker came to mind to me as well. Hmmm
Any chance of posting a picture of the bird's eye?


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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Matilda
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Matilda

Posts : 9198
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Location : Pacific Northwest of the United States of America

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeSat Nov 06, 2010 8:46 am

AZWhitefeather wrote:
Teresa wrote:
I haven't treated any bird with swollen eyelids, so I looked up the symptom and, according to Chevita, itcould either be caused by canker or infectious catarrh. From what you say, the other symptoms of catarrh are absent, so canker may be the main culprit.
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php

There is another thread here that may be of interest to you, concerning a squeaker with one eyelid so swollen the eye appeared to be missing. This one had canker.
http://www.pigeonangels.com/pigeon-rescue-suspect-injury-f6/squeaker-with-missing-eye-t1780.htm?highlight=missing+eye

I was just rereading the initial post and the possibility of canker came to mind to me as well. Hmmm
Any chance of posting a picture of the bird's eye?




Yep...that's why I suggested metronidazole as well as cipro.
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Grimaldy



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Join date : 2010-11-05

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeSat Nov 06, 2010 1:55 pm

No not canker, of any kind. Fecal Gram stain gives no gram negatives. It does give fungus, and lots of it.
I am currently trying to culture some for an ID.


I also stopped the Doxycyline and started him off on Ciprofloxacin.

So far he is hanging in there.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeSat Nov 06, 2010 2:08 pm

Do you have any itraconazole?
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AZWhitefeather
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AZWhitefeather

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeSat Nov 06, 2010 3:37 pm

Matilda wrote:
AZWhitefeather wrote:
Teresa wrote:
I haven't treated any bird with swollen eyelids, so I looked up the symptom and, according to Chevita, itcould either be caused by canker or infectious catarrh. From what you say, the other symptoms of catarrh are absent, so canker may be the main culprit.
http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php

There is another thread here that may be of interest to you, concerning a squeaker with one eyelid so swollen the eye appeared to be missing. This one had canker.
http://www.pigeonangels.com/pigeon-rescue-suspect-injury-f6/squeaker-with-missing-eye-t1780.htm?highlight=missing+eye

I was just rereading the initial post and the possibility of canker came to mind to me as well. Hmmm
Any chance of posting a picture of the bird's eye?




Yep...that's why I suggested metronidazole as well as cipro.

I figured as much. Swollen eyelids 395766

_________________
Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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http://www.pigeonangels.com
Teresa
Administrative Member
Teresa

Posts : 5381
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Location : Portugal

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeSun Nov 07, 2010 12:57 am

Grimaldy wrote:
No not canker, of any kind. Fecal Gram stain gives no gram negatives. It does give fungus, and lots of it.
I am currently trying to culture some for an ID.


I also stopped the Doxycyline and started him off on Ciprofloxacin.

So far he is hanging in there.

It's great that you got a clear result that you can work with! Great job
You know, I had no idea that a Gram test would show the presence or absence of protozoans!
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Grimaldy



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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeSun Nov 07, 2010 8:28 am

Gram stain does not, it is only a quick and dirty way to identify bacteria. The problem is that protazoa infects the GI tract not the eyes or the meniniges. Fungus on the other hand does both. "Canker" is much a misused term, meaning anything from Trichamonis to Salmonella; it basically means lesion.

I started him off on Diflucan last night. After 12 hours the culture dish is definitely growing something. It seems to me I recall that foamy egg yellow droppings are associated with yeast.

He is still with us.
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Matilda
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Matilda

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PostSubject: Re: Swollen eyelids   Swollen eyelids Icon_minitimeSun Nov 07, 2010 12:58 pm

When I speak of canker, I'm specifically meaning, Trichamonis and personally I don't associate it with anything else. Trichanomis is very fragile and don't live long once outside of the host. For that reason, they are difficult to identify because they disintegrate so quickly.
Foamy yellow droppings indicate the liver is affected. Personally...I would still add metronidazole to your treatment regiment.

I'm glad you have difucan available.

I'm delighted he is still alive and I hope he makes it.
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