A new outbreak of PMV on the balcony

Hi dear Pigeon Angels,
I am afraid I have some bad news again: since Nov 1 we have a new outbreak of PMV on our balcony.

This time it was our Micky who started to show the first symptoms - I noticed that she was showing light symptoms for a few days but on last Sunday I was sure: real stargazing. She had problems to pick up the seed, she was very timid, very nervous. She stumbled from time to time. Same with Woody but he was showing less symptoms and he could eat properly. His mate Maggie did not show any signs at all.

I also realized that Lucky was having the first signs - yes Lucky as well, who had the bad canker infection not long ago, holding head differently, being more nervous etc. simply the signs which indicate the existance of the virus. So far no real seizures and all can fly properly - even Micky who was showing the worst symptoms - but not all the time - thank heaven. This time it seems to a weaker strain of the virus or "our"pijjies are stronger to fight it off.

Well - I have to take it as it is: as long as they are able to eat - maybe with some help if necessary - there was nothing that I could do besides giving them some more care. There is no way to separate the infected ones from the healthy ones as the incubation time has already done its work. This time I have started them all on carrot juice, an advice Brad Gibson was talking about in his forum: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Pigeon-Pet-Chat/264318763604779.
Each pigeon that I could get hold of got some carrot juice with the syringe the others had to take their carrot juice from the drinking pots I always have on the balustrade. I gave them no choice - only carrot juice with water - 50/50.

It was quite funny to watch them how they lurked around the drinking pot. They waited apparently for the first to try it and this was then the signal to try it too. Some of them were really pissed off, some seemed to love the mixture of juice and water. To be honest I was amazed that they drank the stuff at all - imagine it is a bright orange liquid despite the 50/50 mixture but apparently the smell was good and most of them tried it.

On last Sunday I have taken Micky in. She was only skin and bones in the meanwhile and I was amazed that Sunday morning that she was still able to fly although she was very wobbly on her legs. So maybe she took her last energy to come to our balcony and walked straight inside. She was the only one with quite bad symptoms - although far not as bad as our other pijjies were 2 years ago - like Pina f.e. who could not eat for several months as you know.

Micky was and still is stargazing, loses her balance from time to time, is very fearful and easily shocked, seems to be in a trance from time to time and has some minor spasms in her feet but only for some minutes. She was and still is having seizures - circling/panicking - but then I take her out and stroke her softly and she stopa immediately her trembling and becomes very calm. She is still trying to eat a few seeds but tosses 90% of them around but I have given her a little food dish so that she can continue to try. She becomes easily frustrated though and quickly gives up.

I put her on tubefeeding and she eats 3 x 20 ml without any problems - no vomiting so far. I made baby rice flakes with apple sauce and joghurt and added carrot juice each time. In the meanwhile she gets carrot juice in the evening and eats 50 thawed peas for supper. Of course she has a warm water bottle beneath her box so that it is cosy warm for her. She often perches either on the bottom or on the little saucer covered with kitchen paper I always put in the boxes and seems to relax. She is often taking a little nap which is really good for her. But she still has her seizures especially during the morning. Thank heaven her digestion works good and her poops look good - I am quite amazed about this.

Thank heaven Pina and Rudi don't make a fuss this time - maybe they know in the meanwhile that this is no threat for them. I think there is a good chance that she will recover again.

Micky is btw the sister of Lucky from a different batch and such a sweet one. I would be really sad if we could not save her. And Woody is the father of Lucky and Micky. Lucky is still showing only some light symptoms - just a bit stargazing sometimes i.e. rather tilting his head to one side rather than holding it straight. The same applies to Woody but his symptoms are slightly worse than Lucky's. Both can eat normally and behave normally besides showing some unusual nervousness and light head tremors. I have treated both with carrot juice too.

Emma still does not show any symptoms at all (she never had PMV), neither does Rudi. She is eating very weel and flying around. Pina and Jimi should be immune as we know. But I treated them also with carrot juice - just in case. Loki and Lotti do not show symptoms either. There are a few more pijjies which are coming regularly - some show light symptoms - others none at all. So I think that this is really a weaker strain of PMV or the pijjies from our balcony have become stronger due to the food and clean water supply and can fight it off. Still my hopes that this would never happen again have ended in smoke. Oh my - as if we had not had enough sick and injured pijjies!!! Apparently this is a never ending story....

I am sorry to hear about your recent problems, Petra.
Keeping my fingers crossed that you are able to get a handle on it.

Please keep us posted.

So frustrating and worrying for you to have another outbreak this year! Some degree of consolation is the fact that they're showing mld symptoms, at least mild compared to your previous patients.
Pina and Jimi should be fine, fingers crossed! And I hope that the symptoms on the affected ones are easing off, especially Micky.

Sending positive healing thoughts for your patients! I'm sure the carrot juice will be a great help, being such a source of vitamins!
Please keep us posted.

Thank you Cindy and Teresa.
It was very frustrating and worrying at first when I realized that this happened again. I was so very much hoping that I i.e. the poor pijjies would have been spared to face this terrible sickness AGAIN. But - luckily - it turned out that it was not as bad as it looked like at first. Besides Micky everyone else who got infected seemedto be able to fight it off by themselves i.e. with the help of extra food and the carrot juice. I am quite convinced that the carrot juice really helped.

I made sure though that all sick pijjies were able to feed themselves and they were. I fed Woody - who showed the heaviest symptoms besides Micky - partially from my hand in order to check on him thoroughly, whether he was able to pick up the seeds properly. Often it looks as if they are eating when in fact they cannot swallow the seed. I also gave him the carrot juice per syringe several times to make sure that he really had his share - did the same with Lucky.

In the meanwhile I have not seen any more sick pijjies. Woody is still keeping his head a bit tilted - so does Lucky - but that's all. They are a bit more anxious than usual still but everything else works fine. They are all in good mood, preening as usual, flying without any problems.

Micky though is a different case. She is still inside, keeping her in the hospital box. She has lost her ability to eat by herself and cannot fly at all. When she tried to helicopter it mostly ends in uncontrolled movements. Still she isin good mood and tried again and again. She becomes quite frustrated when she tried to eat and cannot pick up the seed i.e. swallow it but then I take her into my arm and comfort her. She has become such a sweet pet pigeon who loves to be cuddled and stroked the whole day

I am sure she will recover one day again - maybe soon - I don't know. But she will receive every help and care she needs. We have experience enough - don't we?

It's good to know that all, apart from Micky, are managing alright. And Micky herself will improve with time, I'm sure. As you said, there's no lack of experience dealing with that...

The photos are adorable! You can just see from her expressions what a sweet natured pigeon she is. Her natural defences are still low, you can see that just from the colour of her ceres, poor baby!

One suggestion, if I may: I'd be worried about leaving that water container in there with her, unless it's only there while you're watching. My Sammy, during a seizure, got her head stuck underwater in her water dish, and I still shudder to think what could have happened if I hadn't seen it! She's had a gravity container since then. I love it, as it's impossible for her to drown in it, impossible to spill or tip, and impossible for the pigeons to soil the water. I have a spare one in the house, the right size for a PMV pigeon -- I could send it to you, if you'd like to give it a try.

Dear Teresa - thank you so much for your offer . I know exactly what you mean but be assured that the watercontainer is not a danger for Micky. You cannot see it in the photo but the cup is quite high and it is fastened in a corner of the box which builds a niche so the access to the water is not wide open as it seems but quite narrow. So when Micky it standing on the pot she cannot drink because it is too narrow and if she wants to drink she has to stretch herself a little bit. Even during a seizure her head cannot fall into the water.

Also her seizures are not as bad as those from Pina and the others - Micky is "only" circling but does not have these terrible cramps where everything goes upside down.

But it would be helpful for me if you could add a photo here from the water supply you are using. I may buy one to have one on hand.

During lunchtime we have started to let Micky out and give her room to exercise. Unfortunately she rather loves to sit on my shoulder or arm and waits for her strokes.

Thanks for explaining that, Petra! With the box being almost transparent I didn't have the right sense of perspective! And I'm very happy to hear that Micky has a much milder form of the disease than Pina, Jimi and Sammy!
So cute that she likes to sit on your shoulder rather than exercise!

This is the arrangement I have for Sammy:



The water container is about 15 cm high, and tapers slightly towards the top. It's held in place by a loop of wire forming a figure of 8 with one half of the 8 very small (to fit round the cage wire) and the other half a lot bigger (to fit around the middle of the water container). To change the water I just slide the wire up to remove the container, than push it back down over the refilled container until it fits snugly. That's a lot less work than untying a container and then tying it again.

For the set-up you have with your boxes you would need two narrow vertical slits, just a little wider than the wire.

Thank you so much Teresa!!! I love this watercontainer and will see whether I can find a similar one.

Micky had quite a set back for the last 2 days. I should have known before that this was not going to be it but you can always hope. After her digestion worked perfect for nearly 2 weeks she started vomiting 2 days ago and was stargazing quite a lot and had some really bad seizures - the poor little one. But she tries very hard to get hear head straight again.
Only when I keep her in her little "batman cape" and carry her around she becomes very calm. But unfortunately I cannot do this for the whole day.

I also discovered a lump right in the middle of her crop so I put her on Spartrix 2 days ago. I could not discover any lesions in her mouth but it is too red for my taste so there might be some canker lurking farther down.

I put her back on tube feeding entirely because she vomited even some of the defrosted peas.

We will see how it goes tomorrow. Surprisingly she did much better today, less stargazing and less seizures and during lunchtime while we had her on our bed (covered by a piece of cloth of course ) she seemed to feel quite well and did a couple of flying efforts besides napping on my arm. But her digestion does not function so very well at the moment

I'm sorry to hear Micky's taken a turn for the worse, Petra! These ups and downs happen so often, as we've seen, but they're always worrying.

I agree with you that vomiting, a lump in her crop and the red mouth do point towards canker. The variety that produces identifiable yellow lesions is very rare now, and it's more common for us, especially in Europe it seems, to be faced by subtle symptoms that often go unnoticed until it's too late.
The Spartrix must be doing its work already, and it's great to know that she's responding well to the tube feeding... and the TLC! You 'painted' a very cosy picture of her on your bed, and also napping on your arm!

If you can't find the water container, let me know -- it's very light to post, so no bother!

Sorry that I haven't updated earlier but when you think the worst is over it just starts new again or new problems arise.

Micky - she is with us now for 4 weeks. And although she makes progress altogether there are days where she is heavily circling and stargazing. Poor little one. It will probably take still quite some time until she is recovered.
Although she completed a full cycle of Flagyl (7 days) yesterday the canker does not seem to be entirely gone. There is still a little lump about 2 fingers wide beneath her beak in the middle of her crop. I hope the contents are dead in the meanwhile and that this will disappear eventually. Her mouth is still a bit too red and the lesions have not gone yet entirely. But she does not vomit any more and her appetite is better again.
I am trying to give her immune system a boost now with Bene Bac. Hope very much that this will help. I am also feeding her still millet cereal with applesauce and carrot juice in the morning - for lunch and dinner she is having thawed peas which she absolutely loves to eat.

The positive side is that she is out of her box each day for a few hours so that she can exercise when she wants, helicoptering, walking around. Her flight still goes in circles and is still uncontrolled but her wing beats become stronger each day.

Micky is always extremely happy when she has our company and very cuddly. I have never had such a cuddly pigeon.

Pina - As if the problems with Micky weren't enough I realized that Pina had problems with breathing 2 days ago. From one day to the next she suddenly showed symptoms of having canker as well. My sweet little one - as if she hadn't been ill enough for her entire life.

After examining her thoroughly I detected that her mouth was bright red and she also had those treacherous lesions inside her mouth and a small lump in the middle of her chest - just like Micky. So I put her immediately on Spartrix. This was in the morning. Towards the evening her breathing became better and she could breathe through a closed beak again. The next morning I gave her another Spartrix. She seemed to be quite okay. An advantage is that she is currently sitting on eggs so she has her quiet time to relax.
Two days ago she started vomiting. I have never seen something like that:
Pina went to the food box, ate and then started vomiting after a few minutes. After this stopped she went to the foodbox again, ate and started vomiting after a few minutes again. I really cannot tell you how often she went to eat and then vomited again - it went for the whole day. In between she took a flight outside, came back, went to the foodbox, ate, and then started vomiting again. I just could believe it. But what could I do?

Then the idea came into my mind that this might be her way of cleansing her crop from the canker. Of course I was busy for the whole day to run after her and remove all the spit food in order not to contaminate any other pigeon.

Yesterday morning Pina seemed okay again until she came down from the nest to make her poop. Omg - I have never seen such a terrible poop: it was really gross, a huge mass of fluid, some nearly black muscous slimy stuff, a lot of whites. I could not even take a photo. Now I was really worried. But then again I thought - yesterday she's cleaned her crop, then this must be a cleaning of her intestines - she is getting rid of the damn canker. And so it came. The following poops were nearly normal again.

Today Pina seems to be quite okay again.

Btw - I treated Rudi also with Spartrix because he was showing indeed no symptoms from outside but he also had a reddened mouth and some lesions. I did not want to give the canker another chance.

The same I did with Jimi - reddened mouth and some lesions but no other symptoms.

I hope very much that this was it for a long long time. I am so fed up with this damn canker - especially when it is so aggressive.

OMG, poor things!

I was starting to get worried seeing that you hadn't been on Facebook for a few days...

When I had the same problem with that kind of canker, I was advised to keep administering Flagyl until the lesions disappeared and the mouth wasn't red any more. (Having said that, I try to avoid continuing the medication for longer than 10 days, if at all possible, because at 14 days there's (in theory) a complete erradication of all the Trichomonas organisms, and the pigeon will have no natural defence against the next infection.)
I also stopped giving them seeds, and just stuck to apple dessert and formula, to make sure that some food went through, past the internal blockages.

Pina's situation seems the most worrying at the moment, as it would seem that she had a canker lesion pressing on her trachea, but that seems to have eased now, thank goodness!

Bet wishes for their continued recovery!

Oh my goodness, Petra!! You and the pijjies really are having a time.

Sending a very special 'GET WELL' wish to all of your precious babies.
And a BIG hug to you.

Please keep us posted on how things are coming along.

Thank you so much Teresa and Cindy.
I have to apologize again that I am late with an update again but here it is. I have taken it from my diary so I need not re-typetoo much:

12/01 Today I discovered that Micky has developed new canker growth on her tongue and her mouth altogether has become totally red again and the lump in her chest has also grown again. On Tuesday she had her 7th Flagyl portion i.e. no medication for the last 2 days. I am a bit clueless of what I should do now? Go back to Spartrix for a couple of days? Or rather wait whether she can combat this herself. I am very worried of over-medicating her and killing everything that can make her strong again. Her immune system seems to be very bad still. Yesterday evening I started her on pro-biotic. Her poops are a bit soft due to the food she gets but colour is totally normal and there is no smell. Also she does not smell out of her mouth. She does not vomit - her digestion is working good.

I tried to take her outside on the balcony in her box again because I know that sunlight is a good help - she hasn't had sun and fresh air for 4 weeks now but whatever I try - even holding her in a burrito - makes her go totally berserk with heavy seizures. Apparently she is still very sensitive to bright light and of course the noise outside.

12/2 What makes me really wonder is that despite a very red mouth and new canker lesions on the sides of her mouth and a slightly larger lump in her crop Micky still eats well and makes good poops. In the morning I am feeding her an organic baby cereal with millet flakes, I add apple sauce, joghurt and a few drops of ACV and some carrot juice (Beta Carotine against the PMV). She eats 30 ml!! of that stuff!
The only problems she got is with fat - if I put a few drops of oil into the mixture she starts vomiting again. Apparently fat is not good for her at the moment but I do not know whether this is rather related to the canker or to the PMV - I can remember that Willy also had big problems with fat and also Pina. Micky eats around 40 peas for lunch and a bit less for dinner. So this is altogether enough that she does not lose her weight.

Today she also did some helicoptering and was running around quite a lot. So this behaviour also lets me hope that she will pull through. Of course she becomes very tired in between and falls asleep on my pillow on our bed or on my arm. But she is very lively in her active time. And she sings from time to time. And she grunts angrily at herself when her circle flights do not work as they should - which is very funny.





12/3 Weighing day for Micky: she has 312 gr which is actually not too bad considering her additional problems with the canker. But she makes progress every day - tiny steps but bit by bit.

Today she even took a leap over our little breakfast table from the bed which looked very funny and today she jumped onto the breakfast table nearly on my plate and started picking at the bread. She even managed to eat one or two little crumbs. Her head does not tremble any more and her pecking movements are more direct now - not a whole cm beside the object. It seems like a miracle to me.

12/4 Micky is doing quite well. Despite the fact that she still has canker the lesions have become less prominent - are paler and the lump in her crop is a bit smaller again and softer. Maybe her immune system is taking up and her body seems to fight it. She is getting stronger every day, runs around much more, does more little flights - with crash landings still but on the carpets nothing bad can happen. She is still stargazing but also trying to straighten her head immediately.

It becomes more and more tricky to catch her because she can run much faster now and tries to escape all the time. We have to watch her now much more carefully especially as Pina tries to teach her a lot of stupid things. Pina can be such a little devil, showing Micky how to jump on the plants in the window and promptly Micky tries to imitate her as soon as we turn around

I am still feeding Micky with cereal in the morning and thawed peas for lunchtime and dinner. In the evening I give her Bene Bac now every day. Possibly this pro-biotic has helped the turn-around. I also ordered some Propolis, a 20% solution, recommended by pigeon fanciers which is supposed to combat the canker. I hope it will arrive soon.

At the moment I have decided against Teresa's recommendation to go back to Flagyl and Baytril for another 10 days as this had become necessary with her Halo. I can only pray that I made the right decision. Micky is not as weak as Halo was and she still has some energy left to fight for herself. So for the moment I will refrain from giving her more medication but as soon as it becomes worse again I have to put her on antibiotics again. I hope so very much that this will not be necessary as Micky needs to go outside again. We cannot keep her as a pet as this would not work with Rudi and Pina. So I have to do everything possible that Micky gets strong again to defend herself outside.


12/6 Emily laid her first egg # 79 after a long while and since she had been ill beginning of November. I was very anxious to see it and it was not right yet: not as bad as the others before but there was still a spot where the shell was lightly damaged and very thin although I have given her Calcivet every 2 -3 days.

12/7 Pina, Micky and Emma got their Calcivet. I also gave Emily a drop of Propolis.

12/8 Emily laid her second egg # 80 - this time it was perfect - nearly completely smooth shell and strong.

I am totally convinced that the Propolis has been a good idea. Even if it helps only indirectly and is not a "cure" for the illness itself - it supports the body with additional energy and healing powers. There may not be any clinical studies yet which actually prove the results of this remedy but this applies to many homeopathic remedies. I mean it is really not easy to understand and believe that a remedy which has been produced in high potencies where the original agent exists only in "molecules" can cure an illness but this IS the truth although the traditional medical science denies this in most cases. Well - I have my own experiences with this and KNOW that it works. The body - whether human or animal - contains more and can achieve more than we can comprehend with our brain.

I think that the body of an animal is even more susceptible for homeopathic remedies than the human body because an animal does not have to fight with its own intelligence where brainwash tells him that this cannot work.

12/10 Micky has received her 5th portion of Propolis this morning and her mouth looks nearly normal now - there are still some canker lesions but no yellowish colour any more. The lump in her crop is gone.

It was snowing the whole day today but the earth is too warm still so it was only wet. Nevertheless Pina and Rudi were flying outside for more than an hour. Very brave our loving couple.

12/11 Today was weighing day again: Micky is now on 315 gr - so she gained 3 gr despite the canker and some vomiting.

Micky loves to sit on my knee when I am on the bed. Sometimes when I stroke her softly she tries to preen my fingers - very gently not like Pina who is only interested in having a little Ninja fight with me. She always tries to rip some flesh from my fingers. I am convinced she is not a pijjie but a carnivore. She is a completely different character and very strong.

At the moment we are waiting for Pina to lay new eggs and Rudi is busy like hell to bring her nest material, flying like crazy 100 times on the closet with a strip of cardboard in his beak. It looks so funny and Pina comments each gift with her funny voice that sounds so much like a poodle

12/12 Micky is trying to escape. Now our bedroom is not enough any more - as soon as we turn our back to her she tries to find a weak spotin our "defence" in order to escape. She is sooooo curious and wants to explore everything. We have to be even more careful now that she does not slip through the balcony door. This would be fatal.

This morning I checked her mouth again as I do each morning and there were no canker lesions any more . The inside of her mouth has turned from a sick red into a healthy pink! I will continue though to give her the propolis for a few more days to make sure that everything of the canker is gone and then I will give it twice a week until she has conquered the PMV infection.

I pray thatthis good progress is continuing...

Micky's progress is absolutely wonderful! It's great to see the way she's rallying back and fighting the diseases. Top quality nutrition, supplements, safe exercise and plenty of TLC have achieved a miracle!

She's stunning, by the way! I love those colour combinations! My Persephone looks a lot like that, but with less white. She's got over her body paralysis 100%, I just need to convince her to keep trying to fly -- which she doesn't want to do, just runs around the room doing her own thing!

Thank you Teresa
I hope so very much that Micky will stay on this good path. She is such a sweet pij - it will be hard to let her go one day again.
Today she ate really well again - no problems at all with swallowing and she is totally cooperative when I feed her in the meanwhile - opens her little mouth as wide as she can when she sees her peas and corn - so funny

Congratualtions on your little Persephone: maybe YOU should show her how to fly - flapping your angel wings???? She probably knows quite well why she does not want to fly - so she can stay with you!!!!

LOL, those aren't wings, they're baggy sleeves!

Persephone is very comfy, that's a fact, she's in the warm here with me while the rain is falling outside, so she'll need some time in the veranda to re-acclimatise to near ambient temperatures before she can be released. (She's peeking at me while I write, I swear she knows I'm talking about her!!!)

I like the company, of course, but I don't have that much room, so if she can be released I will do that, and save the extra cages for the emergencies or the unreleasable ones. It's a better life for them outside anyway, plenty of freedom and company, and the temperatures are never below zero.

C'mon Teresa - you should not hide - you are the true for me!!!

I think I can say that Micky's canker is gone. Now she can work on her neurological problems and she does - oh yes she does. While she started to dig all my planting pots over she can reach she also started on a new hobby: whenever I am near her she wants to play Mama's little parrot: she flies!!! on my shoulder and wants to be carried around. Oh my - where shall this end????

It will end up with poop on your shoulder, of course!!!

But that's SO cute!!! It's amazing how friendly she is, considering she wasn't hand raised!

I had a good laugh this morning at pigeon bath time. When it was the turn of the pigeons who live in the study, Strophe was hogging the bath for ages, like a stroppy teenager taking time over her toilette! Eventually she allowed Persephone to join her... eventually!
Halo would have none of it, though I loved watching her exercise her wings. I didn't insist, and took her to the bathroom instead to wash just her feet. Her sore foot is perfect now, like it never happened!

It was very sunny and Strophe went outside for a longer period of free flight, then came back and landed straight on my head. Which would have been even sweeter had she not stepped on something outside...

Oh my Teresa you gave me a good laugh this morning

Of course I need more T-shirts now....

But I can live with this. If we are at home Micky is roaming free and she loves to sit by the window where she can watch the gang. From time to time she gets very excited because she wants to go outside of course but that will need a while still. She is making her exercises every day and gets more and more skilled and not so clumsy any more.