Severe Canker Infestation!!!

None of the following symptoms was to be seen that Charis described so detailed in the thread of the "balcony pigeons"

Matilda wrote:

Here are some other symptoms of canker as expalined in an article by Colin Walker...

1. 'Penguin' posture - Associated with proventricular (glandular stomach) and crop pain. Birds will lean back on their tails and gulp. Noticed particularly after eating and drinking.

2. 'Dry feather' - Due to lack of down feather drop and bloom production.

3. 'Leady' feel - Affected birds will not come into condition and feel heavy in the hand.

4. Wet dropping - Inflammation in the digestive tract creates a thirst, leading to elevated water intake and urine production. This produces a clear watery rim around the dropping.

5. Green droppings - Due to digestive tract irritation and in some birds decreased food intake.

6. Inflammation in the throat - Tonsillitis and increased clear to grey bubbly mucus.

7. Interference with crop function - Delayed crop emptying and sometimes vomiting.

8. Increased food consumption by team as a whole

9. Dry yellow canker - In birds of any age, this tells you that many other birds have elevated trichomonad levels, which have not yet passed the threshold for yellow material to form.

10. Indirect signs - Poor loft flying, poor tossing, respiratory problems that respond poorly to medication or quickly relapse, a dramatic improvement in the birds' general vigour in response to anticanker medication are all suggestive.

Our sweet little ones, Peppi and Pina, were looking fine and full of action, eating and drinking well. They are now 30/31 days old. Being fed not only by their parents but both grandparents as well seemed to give them the best possible start into their life.
Only because I realized this morning that Peppi apparently had some slight difficulties to swallow his food, Pina showed not problems at all, I decided to check Peppis mouth and found to my horror those yellow deposits. Then I checked Pina and could not see anything so far. BIG ERROR.

I packed both babies into the cardbox and drove to the vet.
She immeadiately recognized a severe infestation of canker. She showed me that Pina had her throat full of those deposits and also Peppi had a lot in his throat. Both were given Spartrix.

In 2 days I have to give them another pill.

I am totally shocked. How can this be possible? I mean I have no idea how long they already are suffering from this. There were no, absolutely no signs of canker until today and only because I watched closely and decided to check them both I detected the danger both were in.

Please keep fingers crossed that it was not too late! I am really worried.

What else could I do to help my little ones to recover from this completely? Besides all the hygienic aspects like no bath tub, thorough cleaning and drying of drinking pots? Additionally I always put organic vinegar into the drinking pot. What else can I do?

The parents and grandparents have to be treated as well. I have to give them Spartrix also. My vet said it is not enough to medicate the water or food. I had hoped this would work but she vehemently said it is not enough. So I have to catch them and treat them as well.

What is your take on this?

First and foremost, I'm sorry to hear about the canker outbreak. It's really not that uncommon.

I agree with your vet, in that water treatment is not enough.
You mentioned you need to give them another Spartrix in 2 days. Was it not recommended to give them a pill for 3-5 days in a row, or am I misunderstanding what you wrote?

Any number of things can trigger an onset of canker.
The attack on the two babies could have stressed them enough to bring it on. That's not to say it did, but it's a possibility.
Mom and Dad could have had it.
It's nearly impossible to pinpoint where it started.

The is, it's treatable.

Please do let us know how things are coming along.

Thank you Cindy,
no - the vet told me to give one more pill to each baby on Sunday. I asked twice to make sure. It's Spartrix, 10 mg and she gave me the pills.

But I have to bring them next week again for a check-up. I really really hope it is going okay. This evening Peppi seems to have a bit of a problem with breathing - at least I see him with his beak a tiny bit opened but no noises so far. Now the little angels are sleeping. They've had enough!!!

How many pills in total are you to give them?
What were the exact directions?

They received one pill this afternoon and I am supposed to give them another (each of them) on Sunday. That's all.

pigeonwriter wrote:

They received one pill this afternoon and I am supposed to give them another (each of them) on Sunday. That's all.

That's interesting.
My experience with medicating canker is to give 1 10 mg tablet of Spartrix each day for 3-5 days, depending on the severity of the canker.

I've never heard of giving one pill then skip a day then give another and that's all, especially if you're dealing with a severe case.
I'm .

pigeonwriter wrote:

They received one pill this afternoon and I am supposed to give them another (each of them) on Sunday. That's all.

I agree with Cindy, Petra. The treatment outlined by the vet may not be enough.
You do need to have your won stash of Pigeon meds and your own first aid kit. Is there a plce near by where you can buy Pigeons medications? Some things are a must to have on hand.
If you can get this outbreak under control, then you will be able to treat as a preventative via food or water although...individulal treatment is always best.

Thank you both Charis and Cindy,

you know I am really in a dilemma here and do not really know what I should do. After reading so many conflicting reports and statements I am totally lost now what I should do.
I could not reach the vet today and ask here really why she insisted on making a day pause in between. I only know that in homeopathy you often have the case that you take medication one day - one day pause - and then again.

Now I know Spartrix is not a homeopathic medication and I do not know what recommendations are included in the package insert because she gave me just the allocated pills for the time period in discussion. I tried to find out via the internet but ended up in more conflicting information. In the end there must be reason why the vet wanted me to make a pause. What shall I do?

This was one problem. The second problem is regarding the parents and the grandparents who are still feeding. I am very glad about this because Peppi really had problems to eat this morning. Since midday it has a bit improved i.e. he has taken some seeds at least and did sip a little bit from the water. Pina is a bit better - she has eaten this morning a few seeds and she drank some water. She seemingly has no problems breathing although I observed her yawning quite often but I know that she tried to get rid of these deposits this way. Interestingly I noticed that both were eating more grit than usual - I assume that they try to get rid of the deposits this way.

Back to the others. Parents and grandparents show absolutely no signs of canker. But then I have not checked them yet. I am afraid if I catch them now I am loosing their trust again - which was hard work - and they might not come in any more to feed the babies. They all have an excellent relationship which I do not want to destroy by any means because I think this would do no good to the little ones. Pete, the grandfather is absolutely devoteld to his grandchildren. He just flew on the closet where the little ones are sitting, in order to feed them there.

The vet gave me pills in order to treat Pete, Emma, and the parents. But I am in great doubt whether they should really be treated as well. Of course I know, at least one of them has infected the little ones - there was no other contact - but as I said they all show absolutly no signs of acute canker.

I have read that you possibly can do more harm medicating adult free flying feral pigeons with a functioning immune system instead of letting them keep their balance with the trichonomades by themselves. In a loft this may be a completely different issue. also for breeding reasons. But Emma and Pete are not supposed to breed any more this year - maybe next if at all. I don't know yet.

As I absolutely do not want the babies to become pets which have to stay inhouse but I want them to grow up to strong and healthy pigeons who can enjoy the life they ae supposed to live even if this is really difficult for me to accept - I am in deep doubt also what I should do with the adults either.

I checked their mouths this afternoon - not worse but also not better yet. But Peppi seems to be able to breathe a little better now and from time to time he eats a little seed. Both fly a bit in my living room, fooling around a bit - so the situation currently does not seem to be hopeless. Pina just found me head to be the right landing place while I am writing this.

I have to make decisions. But I don't know what the best desicion is.
If I give them another pill this evening - could this damage anything? What are the risks?

Petra...they are your liitle outside flock. They are supported by you. They must all be treated. They all have it wheather or not you can see it. Babies and young birds are especially affected by canker.
As long as the babies are being fed by infected parents, they will be reinfected.
When I treat babies, I don't let the parents feed them any longer because of the reinfedtion. Even if you treat the parents too, the babies will get too much medicine. Can you teach these 2 to eat on their own?

Personally, I would give the babies the canker medicine without skipping a day. You need to go with your gut level on this. I'm also wondering if you need a different canker treatment such as metronidazole [flagyl]. Spartrix seem to work better as a preventive and in milder cases.

I don't think any damage will be done by treating tonight. Many of us have followed this protocol for years with no ill affect to the birds.

Charis,
okay - I made a decision - I just gave them another pill and it went better than I feared. I was thinking about it during the whole night how I would manage to give them them that huge pill without damaging their little throats - I could hardly sleep.
I bought some small syringes today - 1 ml - without the needle of course and gave them some water directly into the crop- just the same way as the vet. Both took the pills quite professionally - without pooping on my head afterwards and they did not vomit. Pina even went straight away to the foodie pot! Hopefully Peppi is eating soon again too. At least I know now how to give water into the crop.


for the moment.

Will keep you updated how it is going tomorrow.

Thank you so much for your help and care!

That's great. You will learn lots as time goes on. When the pills are big...another way is to cut them into pieces and pop the pill in smaller amounts.

NiteOwl had some baby Pigeons that had an especially bad case of canker. She got liquid metrondizole form her vet. I don't remember how many days she treated them but it seems it was for 10 days. She had to teat the entire loft.

Petra,
On occasion I have had pigeons with canker so severe it filled their mouth.

Knowing there was absoutely no way a pill was going through that, I opted to fill an eyedropper with rehydrating solution and then put the solution in a small dish. From there I dropped a Spartrix in the water and let it dissolve (only takes a second).
I refilled the eye dropper with the medicated water and slowly administered it right inside the edge of the beak, enabling the water to 'trickle' through the canker.

In not so severe cases, although questionable, I've cut the pill in quarters and given a quarter at a time, as Charis has suggested.

You're doing a great job!

I have realized that the pills are dissolving quite quickly - then why not making it even simpler and dissolve it in water from the beginning and then put the whole into a syringe? I had the feeling that it was much easier for them to "swallow" that syringe (with water in it) i.e. to push it gently into the crop than the dry pill.

Charis, what do you recommend as a first aid kit? I can certainly buy the Spartrix f.e. via internet or order it from a drugstore near by. I have those small syringes, I always have honey to create a solution for hydration. What else would be recommendable?

Antibiotic such as clavamox or baytril.
A wormer for round worms...I use Ivermectin
The kind of wrap that sticks to itself
heating pad
Animal kennel such as the kind one would use to take a cat to the vet
Hand feeding formula such as Exact or a box of rice cereal made for human babies
At least 1 jar of applesauce for human babies
I package each of frozen corn and peas
antibiotic cream for humans

pigeonwriter wrote:

I have realized that the pills are dissolving quite quickly -

then why not making it even simpler and dissolve it in water from the beginning and then put the whole into a syringe?

I had the feeling that it was much easier for them to "swallow" that syringe (with water in it) i.e. to push it gently into the crop than the dry pill.

There are times where I've only seen a small nodual or two and popping the pill to the back of the throat was faster than dissolving it.

What you need to remember is to dissolve the pill in only a tiny amount of water, so as not to dilute it too much. That's why I use an eyedropper.

Matilda wrote:

Antibiotic such as clavamox or baytril.
A wormer for round worms...I use Ivermectin
The kind of wrap that sticks to itself
heating pad
Animal kennel such as the kind one would use to take a cat to the vet
Hand feeding formula such as Exact or a box of rice cereal made for human babies
At least 1 jar of applesauce for human babies
I package each of frozen corn and peas

antibiotic cream for humans

You want to make sure you get cream not ointment. The ointment has a tendency to gum up the feathers.

Danke, Cindy.

pigeonwriter wrote:

Charis,
okay - I made a decision - I just gave them another pill and it went better than I feared. I was thinking about it during the whole night how I would manage to give them them that huge pill without damaging their little throats - I could hardly sleep.
I bought some small syringes today - 1 ml - without the needle of course and gave them some water directly into the crop- just the same way as the vet. Both took the pills quite professionally - without pooping on my head afterwards and they did not vomit. Pina even went straight away to the foodie pot! Hopefully Peppi is eating soon again too. At least I know now how to give water into the crop.

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, Petra.
I'm very glad you followed Charis's advice and gave the babies another pill. I've seen lots of discussions where people have said that the manufacturer's recommended dosage was 1 pill of Spartrix on the first day and another on the third -- just what your vet told you. Except that all the experts were saying that when they did that the canker returned almost immediately, and that dosage only served to make the protozoans more resistant to the treatment. They discovered through their experience that one pill on each of three consecutive days does the trick and the squeakers suffer no side effects.
With Metronidazole (Flagyl, etc) I've been using 50mg/day for an adult weighing over 300g (half of that for a squeaker) during 7 days.

I understand your reservations about using non-holistic medicines, especially on youngsters, but canker is a horrible, merciless killer, and I know you will only have peace of mind when you know your babies are safe. I have found that natural remedies work best to strengthen their immune system and as a preventative. But even here, most people who keep pigeons medicate them twice a year against canker -- just in case!

I hope your babies continue to improve rapidly!

I'm sorry to hear the babies are not feeling well. :( I hope they made a full and speedy recovery!

Matilda wrote:

Antibiotic such as clavamox or baytril.
A wormer for round worms...I use Ivermectin
The kind of wrap that sticks to itself
heating pad
Animal kennel such as the kind one would use to take a cat to the vet
Hand feeding formula such as Exact or a box of rice cereal made for human babies
At least 1 jar of applesauce for human babies
I package each of frozen corn and peas
antibiotic cream for humans

Thank you so much Charis - this is a good list to start with. Although I would have problems to get the antibiotics and the antibiotics cream - these are only available per prescription in Germany and doctors do not easily give you a prescription just as a first aid in case...

Fancyfeathers wrote:

There are times where I've only seen a small nodual or two and popping the pill to the back of the throat was faster than dissolving it.

What you need to remember is to dissolve the pill in only a tiny amount of water, so as not to dilute it too much. That's why I use an eyedropper.

Thank you Cindy, I am aware of this though - it was just a thought when you cannot get the pill into their crop without difficulties.
One cannot learn enough - huh?

Teresa wrote:

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, Petra.
I'm very glad you followed Charis's advice and gave the babies another pill. I've seen lots of discussions where people have said that the manufacturer's recommended dosage was 1 pill of Spartrix on the first day and another on the third -- just what your vet told you. Except that all the experts were saying that when they did that the canker returned almost immediately, and that dosage only served to make the protozoans more resistant to the treatment. They discovered through their experience that one pill on each of three consecutive days does the trick and the squeakers suffer no side effects.
With Metronidazole (Flagyl, etc) I've been using 50mg/day for an adult weighing over 300g (half of that for a squeaker) during 7 days.

I understand your reservations about using non-holistic medicines, especially on youngsters, but canker is a horrible, merciless killer, and I know you will only have peace of mind when you know your babies are safe. I have found that natural remedies work best to strengthen their immune system and as a preventative. But even here, most people who keep pigeons medicate them twice a year against canker -- just in case!

I hope your babies continue to improve rapidly!

No worries, Teresa. Thank you so much for this clarification - now I know where this is coming from and I am relieved. Of course I rather listen to people with lots of experience. On the other hand I have the dilemma that I need a vet whom I can trust fully if there is another emergency. I wonder whether I should talk to her about this - this would be a good test. Either she feels offended because I changed her prescription - or she is grateful for addtional information she herself could very well use.

What I do not understand though is why the pharmaceutical company does not change the instructions if experience has turned out to be as you described.

And last but not least - the most important

the babies are improving rapidly - so rapidly that I could hardly believe it.

I did not check their mouths yet - I will do that anyway when they get the 3rd pill this evening. But they started to eat like little pigs this morning and Peppi even started to swallow the big peas which he could not do until today. Both ate their beloved sunflower hearts and savaged the foodhouse afterwards.

I am still keeping them inhouse though although Peppi tried desperately to get out on the balcony but I did not let him. They must be all healthy first. Maybe tomorrow. So today we have to play with them more in order to not letting them to become too bored.

And before I forget it: Willy, the father has been treated as well now although there was not a single sign of canker in his mouth. I let him feed the babies once only because I did not want to become him neurotical. He is a crazy one

How many pills do I need to give the adults? Also 3 sequently?

Jenaka wrote:

I'm sorry to hear the babies are not feeling well. :( I hope they made a full and speedy recovery!

Jenaka, this is so sweet of you - thank you
and yes - they are improving rapidly!!!!