Severe Canker Infestation!!!

Petra.

Sure beats chasing them around an open balcony during day light hours. :That\\\'s so f
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Great job, Petra.

Today we went to the lady doctor again. Well - I told her what I did etc. etc. - she was not very much amused (telling from her face) that *I* did change her prescription but in fact she did not say anything. I really don't know what the matter is with those doctors - are they really convinced that they know everything? This happens with humane medics all the time. Geez - do they think all other people are stupid only because they don't have a degree?

My mother died in January this year. She had a severe stroke last October, fell into coma and never woke up again. We received 3 completely different diagnoses about her situation from Educated EXPERTS!
But the worst was, that her family doctor did not even recognize a few days before that incident that she was on the verge to have a stroke - he said it was dementia.

People with lots of experience often have so much more knowledge. This is only natural because one medic does normally not have hundreds of cases of one and the same problem. There is so much information available today through the Internet and the possibility to contact other people and exchange knowledge. So I really do not understand this kind of arrogance!

The results at the vet:

Peppi and Pina both still have a tiny bit of those deposits in their throats but it looks much better than before. Peppi has got 5 pills, Pina 3. The question is shall I rather leave it now and wait for complete clearance which can take up to 10 days as I have read - or what?
I have ordered some vitamin compound today which the vet recommended. I do not want to over-medicate the babies. :eek:

Peppi and Pina are greatly enjoying little outings on the balcony now, to the neighbour balcony etc. They eat and they drink and seem to be very happy but I still have a close eye on them.

Petra...I'm sorry but I have just seen this post now. I've had some computer issues and house guests and so...well you know.

I understand what you are saying about the arrogance of the vet you took the baby to. My firend Deb isn't like that and is very open and so I trust her very much. She actually called me yesterday to ask my opinion about a sick chicken that had been brought to the clinic. I think a good vet can let go of that ego and does recognize that a day to day experience with a species gives one valuable experience as well. That's the part of the experience that so many vets are lacking and refuse to recognize.

I would treat your babies until the yellow stuff is completely gone because it isn't going away on it's own and stress which could be a simple as a temperature change, can make the canker full blown again. I think part of the problem is that you need a diffierent medication. Is there anywhere locally where you can buy the metronidazole?

Thank you Charis - no, I cannot get it in Germany without prescription. So what should I do?

Email me your address. I just bought some which you can buy from me and I'll send it to you on monday...then I'll order more for myself. Or...maybe Cynthia or Teresa can buy it for you. They are both so much closer.

Petra...you can go to a pet shop that sells fish supply and see if they have a product with 100% metronidazole. Here it is called FishZole. This may be another quicker option. At least call around.

Dear Charis,

thank you so much for your quick answer - I will try to find that product. Also I am going to check out the internet - potentially I could get it from the Netherlands etc.

I checked the little ones this evening again. Pina is finally totally clear of the yellow stuff and Peppi has only a tiny bit just at the side of his beak - his throat is totally clear.

I have ordered a vitamin combination recommended by the vet - hopefully that will arrive next week.

If you can't find it closer...I will send you some even if it's just a few pills to treat the babies.

Over here Metronidazole is sold as Flagyl 250mg tablets.
I can get some at my local chemist's and send them to you if you can't buy them there. They shouldn't take more than 3 days to get there. Let me know one way or the other.

Matilda wrote:

Email me your address. I just bought some which you can buy from me and I'll send it to you on monday...then I'll order more for myself. Or...maybe Cynthia or Teresa can buy it for you. They are both so much closer.

Charis, you are such a nice person - thank you for this offer. The probability is very high though that if you send it, it gets caught by customs who are very strict here in Germany regarding medications from abroad. ALL packages are going through customs. The only chance for me is getting it from other EG countries.

Teresa wrote:

Over here Metronidazole is sold as Flagyl 250mg tablets.
I can get some at my local chemist's and send them to you if you can't buy them there. They shouldn't take more than 3 days to get there. Let me know one way or the other.

Thank you so much Teresa for your offer. I will see whether I can find it via an internet drugstore. If I cannot find it I may come back to your offer!

Teresa wrote:

Over here Metronidazole is sold as Flagyl 250mg tablets.
I can get some at my local chemist's and send them to you if you can't buy them there. They shouldn't take more than 3 days to get there. Let me know one way or the other.

That's great. It would be so much faster.

pigeonwriter wrote:

Teresa wrote:

Over here Metronidazole is sold as Flagyl 250mg tablets.
I can get some at my local chemist's and send them to you if you can't buy them there. They shouldn't take more than 3 days to get there. Let me know one way or the other.

Thank you so much Teresa for your offer. I will see whether I can find it via an internet drugstore. If I cannot find it I may come back to your offer!

Okay! I'll keep an eye on this thread...

Wow! pigeonwriter, you've been going through a lot with this. But as far as treating the babies, you need to treat them until the visual signs of canker are gone. I had two babies with canker, one where you could see it clearly. She could hardly swallow. When I found it, she had 4 split peas stuck in her throat. I looked deeper down in her throat with a flashlight, and there was the canker that was blocking the food from going down. Then she was getting a lump pushing out on the side of her neck. I gave her Spartrix, with no results, so off to the vet! She gave me liquidd metranidazole,(Flagyl). She said she wasn't very familiar with the Spartrix, but asked for the info paper that came with the drug, as she was interested in learning more about it. She's very open to new ideas and suggestions. I really like her a lot. Finding a vet that will listen and work with me is just as important to me as finding a doctor for myself that I feel comfortable with, and who will listen. Anyway, my little Delilah's throat was so full of the canker that she could barely swallow formula. I had to hand feed her and her brother, as until the parents were treated, I didn't want them passing it back to the babies. And I thought that by medicating the parents, and the babies, that in the process of feeding the babies, the parents would also be passing on the meds to the babies, and that would probably be too much medication for them. Besides, it was the parents feeding that was putting seed into her throat that she just couldn't swallow. There was a tiny little opening in her throat that was left unfilled by the canker. My vet told me to give it to her for 5 days. After the five days, the lump on her neck was gone, but the canker in her throat was still there. I called my vet and told her that I would continue giving it to her until the canker was gone. She agreed, and said that if I didn't do it that way, that it was still there, and would just come back full force. Well, it took 2 weeks on Flagyl to get rid of it. I know you don't like to give meds for longer than is necessary, but stopping it too soon can just help to make the canker more resistant to medication. Sorta like when you have a script for antibiotics from the doctor, and half way through it, you feel better. Some people will stop taking the drug. What this does is to create bad bacteria with a stronger resistance to the drug. After a while, the drugs don't work on that bacteria. We hear about it all the time on the news. By doing this, we are just helping to make the bad bacterias stronger. Eventually, there will not be an antibiotic strong enough to kill them. So they are always trying to come up with stronger medicines.
Anyway, you really need to keep giving the medicine until the canker is totally wiped out. I checked every day, and when it was gone, I gave her the meds for one more day, just in case it was even lower where I couldn't see it. She was 10 days old when she started her treatment, and today she is a very strong, healthy, beautiful little hen, almost 6 months old. If I had stopped the meds too soon, I doubt that this fabulous little bird would even be here now. If one med doesn't work, you try another. And as far as advice, I would go with the advice from people who deal with this sort of thing with their own birds. People who have hands on experience. Vet school doesn't teach you everything. You need to find a vet who is willing, and wanting to learn more from people with experience. Sometimes, your gut feeling tells you more than what the directions on the box tell you. Oftentimes, what a med is supposed to do in a certain amount of time, and what it actually does, are two different things. Listen to these people on here. They are very knowledgeable, they have all learned by trial and error. And they are great people to learn from.
By the way, I think you are amazing, and doing a wonderful job. Thanks for sharing all this with us.

NiteOwl wrote:

And as far as advice, I would go with the advice from people who deal with this sort of thing with their own birds. People who have hands on experience. Vet school doesn't teach you everything. You need to find a vet who is willing, and wanting to learn more from people with experience. Sometimes, your gut feeling tells you more than what the directions on the box tell you. Oftentimes, what a med is supposed to do in a certain amount of time, and what it actually does, are two different things. Listen to these people on here. They are very knowledgeable, they have all learned by trial and error. And they are great people to learn from.

Thank you so much NiteOwl. I am very grateful for all the advice I have received from you guys and I AM listening carefully. I have sent a pm to Teresa, telling her that I want to wait a few more days and check the babies daily whether there is any sign of canker left or returning before I start a different medication. I definitely cannot get any antibiotics without prescription, not in Germany, not from any internet pharmacy. Apparently the officials made lots of websites unavailable in order to deprive the people of their own decisions and "responsibility".

I tried to find even the product Charis recommended for aquaristik purposes or a replacement product, anything that contains Metronizadol but without success so far. But I am not giving up.

pigeonwriter wrote:

But I am not giving up.

That's the spirit!
A true and dedicated you are. Petra.

Fancyfeathers wrote:

That's the spirit!
A true and dedicated you are. Petra.

Cindy - dedicated I am, yet an (without the pij!) I am not.

Oh my, this morning I got up again at 6:15 - both babies requesting to be let out. So they went off. After an hour Peppi was back - hungry - what's probably driven him back but Pina did not come back. After 2 hours I was getting nervous, especially as Willy, the father, seemed to look for her also. 3 hours went by, then another one. You can imgine that I was nearly in panic but what could I have done? I did not even see in which direction she flew off and with whom. I already saw Pina, my sweet little pigeon girl, hanging somewhere, entangled in one of those nets - - another half an hour went by and then, some flapping wings at the balcony door - and there she was, heading directly to the foodhouse and the water bowl.

You must have heard that avalanche erverywhere coming from my heart....

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time finding the metronidazole there. I wish there were some way that we could send it to you.

It's ready to go. I'll post it first thing.

Teresa, you are an and

Bless you for all you do!

I'm glad to hear this worked out for you, Petra.

Teresa.

Gotta love teamwork!

Petra,
It's gone off this morning express post. Not wanting to fall foul of customs, I just sent a blister of 6 tablets (250mg each). Each tablet should be enough to treat an adult for 5 days, or a squeaker for 10. Hope that helps. :)
(I tried to PM you, but I still can't access my messages through the forum).

Great job, Teresa.

Teresa wrote:

Petra,
It's gone off this morning express post.

Not wanting to fall foul of customs, I just sent a blister of 6 tablets (250mg each). Each tablet should be enough to treat an adult for 5 days, or a squeaker for 10. Hope that helps. :)
(I tried to PM you, but I still can't access my messages through the forum).

Teresa.