Severe Canker Infestation!!!

pigeonwriter wrote:

And last but not least - the most important
the babies are improving rapidly - so rapidly that I could hardly believe it.



I did not check their mouths yet - I will do that anyway when they get the 3rd pill this evening. But they started to eat like little pigs this morning and Peppi even started to swallow the big peas which he could not do until today. Both ate their beloved sunflower hearts and savaged the foodhouse afterwards.

* How many pills do I need to give the adults? Also 3 sequently?

That's great news, Petra.

* Yes.
Whoever has been feeding the babies should also be treated, even though you don't see any canker.
If they had just been 'around' the babies, maybe one pill as a preventative, however since they were feeding them, then I would treat as if they had it (and they most likely do, perhaps to a lesser degree maybe.)

pigeonwriter wrote:

Fancyfeathers wrote:

There are times where I've only seen a small nodual or two and popping the pill to the back of the throat was faster than dissolving it.

What you need to remember is to dissolve the pill in only a tiny amount of water, so as not to dilute it too much. That's why I use an eyedropper.

Thank you Cindy, I am aware of this though - it was just a thought when you cannot get the pill into their crop without difficulties.
One cannot learn enough - huh?

100%.

I was so sorry to find that you had been through such a frightening time, Petra. I won't confuse you by adding my treatment protocol to the discussion, but just want to re-endorse what others have said: when it comes to canker it is best to treat all the birds that could have been exposed to the infection.

I don't know whether you saw my post about the symptoms of canker in squabs, it is made up from information gleaned from a number of sources including my own experience, Dr Colin Walker's book and F.D.W Harper's observations in "Coughs and Colds: Croaks and Canker", the information might help in the early identification:

SYMPTOMS IN SQUABS

Not all these symptoms will be present in each case. The symptoms first appear 6 days after infection.

Visible lump in the neck or navel area.
Stretched skin over site of lesion.
Cheesy growth in mouth or throat.
Patches of baldness around neck and mouth .
Slow blinking
Ruffled feathers
Loose watery droppings
Excessive thirst
Loss of appetite
Loss of weight

Very valuable information, Cynthia. Thank you.

Matilda wrote:

Very valuable information, Cynthia. Thank you.

Yes indeed.

Hi Cynthia,
thank you very much also.
This evening I gave the babies their 3rd pill and checked their mouths. Pina's had totally cleared of the yellow stuff and Peppi's was nearly completely free. There was only a tiny rest left but when I checked later again it was gone. How can this be?

I am really amazed about this. Does this yellow stuff simply dissolve or do they swallow it when it's "dead"? Do you know that? Or do they spit it out of their mouth - Peppi was kind of sneezing a couple of times as if he was going to get rid of it.

Anyway I will check their mouths tomorrow again and the following days to see whether there is anything coming back. Will keep you updated. I think I can sleep this night again.

Thank you all for your good advice. I am very grateful.

They swallow it. I suppose they could spit it out, but swallowing is easier. The nodule, which is mainly a solid form of pus, becomes "localised" and then drops off. Sometimes it happens so quicky or so suddenly that it seems miraculous.

I had one baby whose mouth was jammed open by canker, it had all cleared and the nodule was no longer attached to any blood vessels but it was in a dumbell shape so wouldn't fall out and her mouth remained open. I had to remove it with tweezers and it was a rubbery thing. The poor bird's mouth still wouldn't close but my vet told me to leave it, NOT to try physiotherapy of any sort and that it would get better once the nerves started to function again...he was right. :)

Thank you again Charis. This is good to know and explains why it was already gone in Pina's mouth.
Checking both babies today revealed that Pina's mouth is totally clear again so I assume she does not need another pill.
In Peppi's mouth I discovered a very small nodule just at the side - the main part behind the windpipe is totally clear today.
Now shall I give him another pill (#4) or is 3 enough for the remaining rest to clear up?

Unfortunately he has been fed by grandpa Pete again today whom I have not treated yet. Have to get him first

At least I managed to catch his father Willy who has received the second pill today (btw - he had no visible canker)

pigeonwriter wrote:

Thank you again Charis. This is good to know and explains why it was already gone in Pina's mouth.
Checking both babies today revealed that Pina's mouth is totally clear again so I assume she does not need another pill.
In Peppi's mouth I discovered a very small nodule just at the side - the main part behind the windpipe is totally clear today.
Now shall I give him another pill (#4) or is 3 enough for the remaining rest to clear up?

Unfortunately he has been fed by grandpa Pete again today whom I have not treated yet. Have to get him first

At least I managed to catch his father Willy who has received the second pill today (btw - he had no visible canker)

I was thinking everyone involved had been treated.

I would suggest doing whatever it takes to keep Grandpa from feeding either baby until he has been caught and treated.
In the event he does have canker, the chance if it being passed right back to the babies is quite likely.

You've also got to remember that just because you can't see the canker, doesn't mean it's not there. You will never erradiacate it completely just get it to levels that are managable for the bird. That's why many of us treat preventavely.
Last night, it was obvious my sweet Sammy has canker. He was treated three months ago and has very limited contact with other Pigeons. It has been extremely hot though which can be a stress factor, and so I treated him and his mate. I'm using metronidazole.

Fancyfeathers wrote:

I was thinking everyone involved had been treated.

I would suggest doing whatever it takes to keep Grandpa from feeding either baby until he has been caught and treated.
In the event he does have canker, the chance if it being passed right back to the babies is quite likely.

Cindy, do you have ANY idea how difficult it is to catch feral pigeons? Not only that they are not around all the time - I have only and only then a chance to catch one after another when they are coming into the living room to go to the foodhouse. There is no way to catch a very vivid feral pigeon outside on the balcony on the 13th floor! When they come inside I have to move very slowly in order to not alert them, grab the cloth and do what is necessary. I have to be careful that they do not get into panic when I close the door which is difficult enough. Because then they could hurt themselves when they try to escape through the closed glass door. I don't want to have a pigeon with a broken neck instead. This works only with one at a time when the other is not around. I want to keep the stress level as low as possible and I don't want to lose their trust because then I will not be able to catch them at all.

In the meanwhile Willy, the father, has been treated twice, and grandpa Pete once. I have ordered new pills and hope that they are arriving this week so that I will be able to treat mother and grandma as well.
You see this all is not easy at all. :moo:

And on top of all I have some other things to do as well - I can call myself very lucky that my partner is so patient and takes this all with great humour. :!:

pigeonwriter wrote:

Checking both babies today revealed that Pina's mouth is totally clear again so I assume she does not need another pill.
In Peppi's mouth I discovered a very small nodule just at the side - the main part behind the windpipe is totally clear today.
Now shall I give him another pill (#4) or is 3 enough for the remaining rest to clear up?

Please could anyone answer this? You are talking about treatment 3 - 5 days. Now I need to know what I should do with Peppi.

I would go ahead and give one more pill.

Thank you very much Charis. I gave Peppi another one.
I hope that this is it for now. I think that they've had enough now in their young life.
Tomorrow is another day on the balcony - they are getting used to the open world now with parents and grandparents so diligently watching over them. It is a joy to see how curious everything is examined. I hope they grow up to be strong and wonderful free pigeons with a long long life.

For me the days with the nest hanging in the window will be few . It is hard to give freedom and let go. But I also hope that they will return again as all the others I was allowed to accompany for a short time...

pigeonwriter wrote:

Thank you very much Charis. I gave Peppi another one.
I hope that this is it for now. I think that they've had enough now in their young life.
Tomorrow is another day on the balcony - they are getting used to the open world now with parents and grandparents so diligently watching over them. It is a joy to see how curious everything is examined. I hope they grow up to be strong and wonderful free pigeons with a long long life.

For me the days with the nest hanging in the window will be few . It is hard to give freedom and let go. But I also hope that they will return again as all the others I was allowed to accompany for a short time...

I really understand....It's so very bittersweet.... there is nothing more wonderful than a baby Pigeon and they grow up so quickly.
These guys wouldn't have stood a chance without your intervention, so pat yourself on the back and feel good that there are 2 more feathered angels in this world.

pigeonwriter wrote:

Fancyfeathers wrote:

I was thinking everyone involved had been treated.

I would suggest doing whatever it takes to keep Grandpa from feeding either baby until he has been caught and treated.
In the event he does have canker, the chance if it being passed right back to the babies is quite likely.

* Cindy, do you have ANY idea how difficult it is to catch feral pigeons?

** In the meanwhile Willy, the father, has been treated twice, and grandpa Pete once.

*** You see this all is not easy at all. :moo:

* Yep! I sure do. I did it for 5 years.

** It looks like you were able to catch grandpa Pete afterall.

Nope! It sure isn't. A lot of running around, that's for sure.
I've found myself in some pretty interesting predicaments trying to catch a pigeon that needed help, although he didn't think he did.

I was only trying to point out that if ALL suspected birds aren't treated, the canker cycle just continues.

Next time Petra...you can buy some powdered metronidazole and treat their seed. The formula is 2 teraspoons per 2 pounds of seed for 5 days. You oil the seed very lightly so the medicine will stick to it.

You would want to treat the birds before they lay any more eggs that you allow to hatch or in the Spring.

I agree with Cindy...allbirds need to be treated at the same time to avoid reinfection.

Thank you all - message arrived. :!::!:
Willy has got his 3rd treatment - grandpa is stil due this afternoon. Both ladies will be treated when I have the new pills - they are not feeding the babies anymore so this is not an emergency - thank heaven.
It was really very stressful this morning to catch Willy and then I stood on the balcony - the babies were outside - to hinder grandpa to feed Peppi again. He tried to do this every 30 seconds or so. He really is so devoted to the little ones - it nearly broke my heart. But it had to be until he's got his other pills. :(

Charis, the recipe with the powder via food is so much better than the stressful catching. This I can really influence. Why couldn't I use this from the beginning? Is it not as good or not as quickly working as the Spartrix pills? I really hate to catch my pijjies and give them such a hard time. What is difference between both medications?

.The best method for medicating is the individual treatment because you know each bird is getting the amount of medicine it needs. In this instance you knoew you had a canker outbreak because it was so visable in the babies. Treating via the seed will be more of a preventative.

Spartrix and metronidazole are 2 differnt drugs, each used to treat canker. Metronidazole is manifactured in pill, liquid, and powdered form for different ways of applying.

Charis - thank you for this clarification.

I have now a new (old) problem: I could not catch grandpa today - he is much too alert and exactly knows what I am going to do with him. He's got only one pill yesterday. Each time he stepped into the livingroom and I made a step he was out again. There is no way to catch him outside on the balcony. What shall I do?
Same applies for grandma and Winnie, the mother.

I think Emma (the grandma) is going to sit on eggs soon again - may take another week or so. This is the only chance to catch them in the nest. Is there a possibility to start a new round then? Or do I do more harm to Pete then (=becoming resistant)?
I am still not giving up on Winnie, the mother, but that's an unknown factor as well.

I really don't like this whole situation and am totally helpless at the moment. Additionally the little ones are making their first free flights into the world and this is another stress.

Can anyone give any recommendations how to catch feral pigeons on a balcony? I really would appreciate suggestons which do not put the birds into too much stress.

Certainly one pill to grandpa, grandma and mom is going to help. Still...they should not feed the babies but if you can't catch them...well then you can't...all you can do is your best.

It's nearly impossible to catch a Pigeon that doesn't want to be caught unless it's very sick or injured. For the others, I have always waited until after dark and caught them where they are roosting, which has put me in some very interesting locations. :moo: Cindy has had similar experiences and I think both she and I agree that our Pigeon rangling days are over. So...we do understand how difficult it is.
So, my question to you is...where do these guys roost at night? Is it on your balcony?

Here's a link to the Pigeon supply that sells the other canker products. You may be able to find the same ones somewhere in Germany. The liquid mixes best with the water if you decide to go that route.
The individual pills are great to have on hand when you have a very sick bird that you want to make sure is getting the correct amonut of mesdication. The powder you could use to caot their seed.


http://www.foyspigeonsupplies.com/catalog/541-1320.html

This is a very good idea - why didn't I come to this conclusion? Tthe whole family is roosting on our balcony. So I will see how it goes tomorrow. Thank you very much
BTW - I managed to catch grandpa today - he suddenly came into the livingroom to get to the foodhouse and I grabbed my chance to corner him without evoking panicking and there it went the pill.

I AM SO RELIEVED

Hey guys,

grandpa has received his 3rd treatment. What do you say now? Emma has laid a new egg tonight so I only had to wait until Pete was sitting in the nest and the catch was an easy one.
Oh my - was he angry afterwards! I also replaced the egg with the plaster egg. Two flies in one .
Now I have to wait for the additional pills to arrive and there they go the both ladies, grandma and mom.

Mission accomplished for now!