Sexing/Gender identification of >>WHITE<< pigeons..

Guys,Please Help me out in sexing our White pigeons.. My parents bought a pair of WHITE pigeons for my sister^s wedding . After the ceremony my sister ask me to raise those pigeons and i accepted it and took the responsibility in taking care of those wonderful birds...

I just want to know two things.

First, how can i determine their gender Without DNA sampling. There behavioral pattern is difficult for me to distinguish bcuz i am not familiar with pigeons (never raised pigeons before). I want to know their EXTERNAL Physical MALE/Female FEATURES which ACCURATELY indicates their gender. Please help me out.. Some people said that sexing WHITE pigeons is much more difficult than sexing the COLORED ones. So color features will be Off FROM the checklist . They also said that EVEN expert fancier can,sometimes be Fooled and fail to sex WHITE pigeons/doves. Ive heard about the Vent technique but i am not good at it , UNLESS someone here can provide me the BEST pic/Images/illustrations comparing both sexes ((with label as to the measurement used to differentiate male from female, in layman^s term)).


The Second/last thing that i want to know is that, How will i know as to weither these pigeons are STILL juvenile or Fully-Grown Adult. What are the Adults Outer Physical Trait that is absent among the juvenile ones.

Knowing the Pigeon^s gender and age is very important to me. I will HIGHLY appreciate those folks who can provide me with a WELL-labeled/illustrated Photos/Images EMPHASIZING pigeons gender Differences.

Raising this pigeons will surely make my dailyliving better and more interesting ..

Hi, ArchPigeoGuard Maldz, welcome to Pigeon Angels!

You've just asked the million dollar question, really...
I remember some years ago when I asked the experts the same question and was told, "Only a pigeon can know for sure the sex of another pigeon, and even those get it wrong sometimes..."

Ultimately, without a DNA test, the only sure way to find out if a pigeon is a female is to see her lay an egg!

Having said that, there ARE some physical differences between male and female, but they're subtle, depend on what breed the pigeon is, and can only be used as reference if both male and female belong to the same breed and are both adults and in good health.
These differences are that male pigeons are nearly always bigger than the females of the same breed, and in some types of pigeons the top of the female's head is flatter than the male's.

What won't work is expecting to find different reproductive organs. You will know, of course, that male pigeons don't have external organs, and as a rule there's absolutely no difference between male and female vents, except for a female that's just laid an egg (and that only lasts for a very short while). So the vent technique doesn't work for pigeons, except immediately after the hen has laid -- in which case, you will already know she's a she!!!
Young chicks can be sexed by experts, but those are chicks, not pigeons.

Genetics can help... providing you know who the parents are. If not, it's mostly guesswork, whether the birds are coloured or not.

Behaviour is still the strongest indicator, but it's not foolproof.
Boys tend to coo louder and posture and dance a lot when courting a female, whilst girls make low, gentle sounds, almost like purring, sometimes changing octave.
Males tend to be more aggressive and territorial. When challenged, they dance around with an outraged look, and may even wingslap and peck. They are usually the ones who start building the nest. Girls are usually tamer, and when irritated may wingslap but rarely peck.
Two females can coexist in harmony. Two males DON'T!!!!
The mirror test: as a rule, males react to a mirror, either admiring themselves in it, or challenging their own reflection, mistaken for a rival. Most females ignore mirrors.

You say you don't know much about pigeon behaviour, but in this forum there is plenty of information about it, and you can also look for videos of pigeons known to be male or female on Youtube, so you can see and hear for yourself how they act.

As for their age, you can tell by the color of their eyes and the shape and colour of their beak if they are juveniles -- but again, that depends on the breed. Adult rollers look very babylike, and young King pigeons are so big they look adult! Any chance you could post photos? That would help.

Good luck, and I love your signature!

Thank you for your warm welcome Ms.Teresa. I'm glad to join this forum. This helps me a lot. It really do.

I don't know what breed these fellas have..



I haven't EVEN named them 'cuz, i definitely have NO idea with regards to their gender... I never gave a feminine name to a male pet. neither will i gave a masculine name to the female pidgy

I don't even know if they are already full-grown adults


So, laying eggs is only way to distinguish their sexes.

Gees.. It's even more difficult than i thought.


Now i'm interested to know about their behavior. I want to know if they were courting and "NOT" fighting/killing one another..
bcuz they sometimes peck each other and perform a lot of wing slapping, doing shoulder tackle to push the other pidgy away.
The 1st pigeon standing in front is the bigger one and the 2nd pidgy is smaller (the one on the top of the nestBox)

The smaller pigeon always starts the fight, strutting along while perching. the bigger pigeon is just standing peacefully at one place. The bigger pigeon is the silent type BUT will react VIOLENTLY if disturbed by the smaller one. The silent (bigger) pigeon appears to be very hostile if it gets annoyed by the strutting smaller pidgy..

Wow, they are GORGEOUS!!!!

Just at a glance, I would hazard a guess that the bigger one is female and the one at the back is a male, but he may be quite a bit younger than her. They look like very young adults, and by their shape they could be homers, but don't take my word for it, as I don't have that breed.

Imagine a possible scenario in which a young female was separated from her mate (they breed for life) and sold together with a juvenile male. For a while she'll be pining for her mate, and if the young male tries to court her, she will 'slap' him. This could well be what you're seeing.

That shouldn't pose a danger, as the most likely is that eventually they will make friends, even become mates. But it's always a good idea to be vigilant if they fight too much, and do separate them if one draws blood.

The best way to get two pigeons to accept each other is to have a solid partition between them for a few weeks, so they can hear but not see each other. Then replace the solid partition for one that allows them to see but not touch each other (like bars). When they start showing signs of wanting to be together, the partition can finally come down.

Teresa wrote:

Wow, they are GORGEOUS!!!!

Thanks ma'am.

Teresa wrote:

Just at a glance, I would hazard a guess that the bigger one is female and the one at the back is a male, but he may be quite a bit younger than her.

We had the same impression. As the bigger one (front) seldom makes a sound, the smaller pidgy (at the back) always creates an almost endless cooing from early morning 'til sunset and always mumbling around (complaining,or maybe begging, asking for her attention of some sort.)

Teresa wrote:

That shouldn't pose a danger, as the most likely is that eventually they will make friends, even become mates. But it's always a good idea to be vigilant if they fight too much, and do separate them if one draws blood.

Now that's a relief.
I'm always watching them,.. keeping them separated every time they fight, especially when they both clamp their beak to each other's feathers to the point of pulling some of their feathers forcefully as they peck against one another. i dont want them to ruin their fine feathers so i chose to guard them closely and intervene during their duel, making me feel like im some sort of an "On-Call Arbitrator".

Teresa wrote:

The best way to get two pigeons to accept each other is to have a solid partition between them for a few weeks, so they can hear but not see each other. Then replace the solid partition for one that allows them to see but not touch each other (like bars). When they start showing signs of wanting to be together, the partition can finally come down.

Should the solid partition be necessarily placed between them in a vertical manner, separating them sideways?
Because i made their nestbox/room with 2 floors. The second floor (which i considered a partition) is partly made up of half-screen (rear part) and half-plywood (front part of the deck) surface, allowing them to hear one another from the upper deck (bigger pigeon's area) to the base/1st floor of the nestbox(where the smaller pigeon lies rested).

How long should i place the bars/screen after replacing the solid partition. As you have said that solid partition should be retained at least for a few weeks. I mean, how would i know if they Really wanted to be with each other, to be lovers (mate) and not mere companions. Because of what i have observed in them, as i try to isolate one of the pigeons, the other one gets anxious and tries to find its missing companion. then after releasing the isolated pigeon, the one searching him/her gets a relief as if she/he is happy to see the isolated one.

But the confusing part is, later after a relief, the pigeons will fight all over again. Making me think that i am raising two cock (one is juvenile and the other is an adult) pigeons who doesn't want each other (as an opponent) to be out of sight or else they'll get paranoid.
I hope i am wrong about this idea. (raising 2 cock pidgies)


thanks for being responsive Ms.Teresa. I'm starting to like and rely on this forum because of you ma'am.. thanks a lot.

Well, as they've already got to know each other, and sometimes don't act aggressive, it might be enough having a partition that they can see each other through. How long for depends on when they get to accept each other, it varies a lot with their temperaments, but they'll let you know by staying close together either side of the partition, cooing at each other and acting like they want to get through it.

Vertical is the norm, so the pigeons can stand side by side.
Did the pigeons choose their nest boxes, or did you? Because the dominant male always chooses the highest nest box... and if this is the case, it could well be that you've got 2 males. We'll see, but if they are, then they will need mates -- proven to be females!

I was the one who choose their nestbox, I placed pigeon A (bigger one) on the upper partition and place pigeon B (smaller) on the other/lower partition.

But pigeon B was too aggressive, that he usually invades pigeon A's nestbox and pushes p-A out of the box. And during p-B's raid, the bigger pigeon will usually resist, trying to defend its place and often end up in a messy duel/wrestling.

I really, am raising 2 male pigeons. My parents was tricked by the seller of these pigeons or maybe the seller was not keen enough to distinguish the pair's gender.

So, what i did was, i bought another pair of pigeons p-C and p-D from the other pet-shop and ask the shopkeeper to order 2 female pidgies from their supplier. But their supplier refuses to give 2 females and insist that they would only sell 1 female paired with 1 male as part of their policy. But it happened that the shopkeeper was my uncle's friend, so my uncle helped me out in persuading his friend (shopkeeper) to produce the pigeons that i needed (2females). And there it was, now i already have 4 pigeons in our loft even if the 2 new pigeons are way too juvenile compared to our first pair of pigeons (p-A and p-B). It's like, the first pair are 5 years older than the 2nd pair (p-C and p-D).

And then another problem came. i found out that the 2 new pigeons (p-C and p-D) that i just bought, were not ALL females. Pigeon C is a he. It's either the shopkeeper fails to convince the supplier, pretending to my uncle that he had produced 2 females to avoid ruining their friendship, or, maybe the shopkeeper doesn't know how to differentiate males from females, and the supplier isn't an expert in determining the pigeon's sexes. Or maybe the shopkeeper have been fooled by the supplier.

I have read an article that says male pigeons fan out their tailFeathers down on the floor, if they caught an eye on a female and/or make a bowing gesture as a sign of their courtship. I have studied these 4 pigeons behaviors, and found out that BOTH pigeon A and B fanned out their tail feathers down after seeing pigeon D.

On the other hand, pigeon C have been bowing at pigeon A while strutting. And p-A ,often, responds to him by doing the same thing. They both bow while their cooing loudly towards each other (p-A and p-C), then later on they'll charge up and wrestle endlessly as if p-C was always provoking p-A for a duel.

And as for pigeon B, he is the most pissed off pigeon i've ever seen. He felt as if his property (entire loft) had been infested by unwelcomed intruders. He pushes everyone away from the nest box. He always stayed at the top of the box showing who's boss. And so i decided to isolate p-B.

Luckily, p-A had his opportunity to get closer to p-D as they moved up into the roof-top of the nestbox. The giant p-A groomed in front of little p-D. p-A kept on preening his feathers under his wings, from left to right wing and then opening his mouth while puffing his pouch/cropper, as if he wanted to give something to p-D out from his mouth. and then p-D came close to him and pick up/pull out something from p-A's inner throat making both of their beak clamped together and locked up gently yet STICKY as if they are having a french kiss or something.

They seemed to be kissing. They did NOT peck on each other's feathers. Neither did they push each other away. They've done the kissing more than twice. p-A preens his feathers then opens his mouth for little p-D to put her entire beak inside p-A's mouth. and they have been doing it all over again, and even much more often to the point where p-D slowly sat down on the floor with her tail feathers pointing upward exposing her vent then p-A gently climbed up on top of her from behind p-D's back and performed almost 5 consecutive pumpings, and then p-A left off, but stayed close to p-D while preening their own feathers.

Is that how they mate?
I hope p-D's reproductive system is already mature and functioning well.

I have excluded observing the nesting behavior of these birds because i already provided them with man-made nests.
I have made another nestbox for the rest of the males (p-B and p-C) separately.

Eeek, so now you have 3 males and one female!!!

The supplier that wanted to get you a mated pair was absolutely right! As I mentioned before, pigeons mate for life and it's very stressful for them to be separated. It's a shame you didn't mention what you wanted to do, because it might have been possible to put you in contact with someone who has a female for adoption (a widow, for example, or a rescue).
Don't blame the dealers who gave you pigeons of the wrong sex... it's incredibly difficult to tell them apart, and even the most experienced make mistakes! You could, however, ask to swap pigeon C, or see if he'll take him back, because a couple and two single males in an aviary... there will be feathers flying!!! And also, if the couple have babies, the adult males may attack them.
If the dealer will take pigeon C back, we can then put our heads together to see how to get a female for you. She will likely be older than him (she must have produced eggs before, it's the only way to know for sure). It won't be the easiest thing... all the people I know who have pigeons ready for adoption have had a surplus of males, at least until recently. But we can try. Would you be prepared to accept a disabled bird, like one who can't fly, providing she's healthy? Where are you located?

It looks like the young female and pigeon A have fallen in love! The ritual you described means that the male is feeding the female from the food in his crop, as he would do if he was feeding his babies. That is a precursor to mating, definitely! Put it this way, from the moment the female is happy to be wined and dined, she means she's accepted his proposal!

The reason why I asked about the choice of perch, is because in any pigeon community the dominant male will always claim the highest perch. Males often fight for that priviledge, and the winner gets to keep the perch, after which the loser will find another perch and peace is reestablished.

How about naming them? Like, pigeon A could be Adam (well, he was the first!), B could be Bob and D could be Diana!

I am most delighted by your offer to swap my male pigeon (p-C) with a female/hen even if it is disabled as long as its color is ,preferably, white. I would love to help a needy/disabled hen pigeon. I always had the compassion to care for sickly birds.

The two new pigeons were paired indeed, but they were definitely NOT mated. p-C often attacks p-D. Good thing p-A already liked p-D and he kept on protecting her every time p-C attempts to bully p-D. I ask the dealer for a swap but he told me that His supplier wont agree because all their pigeons are paired. So i didn't bother him anymore.

I will add 3 more perches, one higher than the other and place each of it distantly to avoid competition/duel.

And as for the names which you've suggested, they're wonderful.
But....

I am not really funned of using biblical names on pets and Adam is way too biblical. So i will use a different name.

p-A will be named "Gaddo", p-B will be "Brawlie", as he is the Alpha male among the cocks and p-C will be named Cromus.

With regards to the female pidgy, My cousin's beautiful wife is Diana. We had a past behind us, before she got married to my cousin. I wouldn't want my cousin to get the Wrong impression. So naming my female pigeon "Diana" will not be a good idea. That would be a really big trouble for us. I will just change the "i" into "h" and i will double the "n".. making it "Dhanna".

p-D will then be named Dhanna.

From now on, My pigeons Gaddo,Brawlie,Cromus, and Dhanna are officially recognized as the resident of our pigeon loft.. hehe. thanks for all the help Ms.Teresa.

I almost forgot to mention a big problem in swapping the pigeons.
My location is way too far from your country ma'am. We are barred by distance.

Great names!

I see what you mean about the distance... Phillipines, right? But you never know, I'll see what I can find out.

Teresa wrote:

Great names!

Thanks ma'am. i've named my lady pidgy based on your suggestion and twisted its spelling to avoid trouble.

Teresa wrote:

I see what you mean about the distance... Phillipines, right?

Right you are ma'am. i really am from phil. and its really too far from Portugal

Teresa wrote:

But you never know, I'll see what I can find out.

You'd do that for me? That would be Great.
But..It's kinda difficult to make some legal contacts here in our place.
And i'm just a nobody. I never had/tried any transaction from a foreign land before. Not even once.
I don't even have political friends.

You made me laugh when you said you don't have any political friends... who needs them, anyway?... I'm a nobody too, and proud of it!

Right, here's the deal: I have a good friend who came from the Phillipines, and being a pigeon lover herself, she has lots of friends back there who keep pigeons. She said she would gladly do her best to help, but she needs your exact location, to find out if any of her friends live near you. This is because she believes that it would be possible to get you another female pigeon, but she said that transporting live animals in your country is very risky.

So please let me know where you are, either here in this thread or by PM, and I'll pass the information to her.

Teresa wrote:

You made me laugh when you said you don't have any political friends. who needs them, anyway?

Heheh. You're right about that idea ma'am. We don't need them What was i thinking
Maybe i was just thinking more of the idea on how to reduce any risk (by acquiring legal contacts)..

Teresa wrote:

I have a good friend who came from the Phillipines, and being a pigeon lover herself, she has lots of friends back there who keep pigeons. She said she would gladly do her best to help , but she needs your exact location, to find out if any of her friends live near you.

Wow`
i hope her friends who lived near my place aren't the supplier of the petshop where i bought my new pair of pidgy. cuz all their pigeons are limited and already paired

Teresa wrote:

she said that transporting live animals in your country is very risky.

Risky indeed And it's too expensive as well.. I don't have much to pay for all d expenses with regards to transporting the hen pidgy. My salary is already budgeted for my daily food consumption,etc..

And as for my exact location, i'll just send it to you as a PM

Right, I'll keep you posted!

THANK YOU SO MUCH Ms. TERESA.
How can i repay such kindness.
I never knew that Pigeon Angels would be the Home of kind and supportive professional folks .
GOD bless you ma'am.

Yo yo yo! I'm back here for a lil bit. I missed this site. Teresa, thank you for sharing ArchPigeoGuard Maldz thread. Hello Arch. Are you an architect? Anyways, I just found out that you are my kababayan (countryman). I have emailed my friend about his hen availability. Would you believe if I said I am from Lam-an nice to meet you Arch.

Ui Pinoy (filipino)...... Hehehe.. Nice to meet you too Techno

I wander if there were other Pinoys here in Pigeon angels.

Kmusta (how are you) Techno
I can see that you've joined in this forum since 2009

If you're from Lam-am (neighboring town), then i am certain that you have there your pigeon community. I wish I could visit there for some time to view your set up and for me to learn the ideal cage.
Thanks for introducing me to techno Ms.Teresa. You really are kind with resourceful connections worldwide.

It's been a while since my last visit there in lam-am.

Techno, if you have been a member of this forum (2009), then i am assuming that you're already skillful in identifying the gender of the pigeons regardless of their behavior and without DNA testin'. Can you ,please, teach me about the most accurate way of determining their sexes?

And with regards to your friend and his hen, Does he own white pigeons? Cuz i love white pidgy. And i'm ready to swap my Cromus (male) with a hen. Cromus is a juvenile pidgy (5-7months, i guess ).

Oh my goodness, I feel quite overwhelmed by your comments, Arch! Thank you for your kind words, but all it is really is that after a few years you get to know pigeon lovers in many parts of the world, and it's great to be able to work together for a positive result.

Tech, you're a sweetheart, thank you so much for your time and efforts just when I know you're worried about your sweet Piggy. Best wishes for her!

Ow Arch, Im sorry but I guess you better stick your queries to Teresa coz I'm no expert with these lovely pijuns. I can tell you though just by looking at the pictures, theyre absolutely beautiful! I am expert in smooching & loving them. Unfortunately, I am not in Lam an as of the moment. But I would like to see your angels when I go home.

I'm so glad you liked my comment Ms.Teresa. These emoticons aren't enough to express my gratitude towards your generously kind heart.


You gave me a warm welcome as i joined in here in this forum site Pigeon Angels
You responded to aid me at an instance as i seek an advice
You helped me learn and push through/progress
Good thing i found this site . You guys are blessings from above

technocactus wrote:

I would like to see your angels when I go home

Sure thing Techno. I'd welcome you to my pigeons' place anytime you want.

Thank you so much, Arch!

I've been trying to get more information on sexing pigeons from the professional associations, but it all comes down to the same we talked about...
I found this one interesting, because it mentions how the best method is to let the growing pigeons choose a mate, and then keep the pair together -- but how even this is can occasionally lead to same-sex pairings:

•Sexing:
For pigeon and dove breeding you will need a sound compatible pair. Many doves and pigeons are not easily sexed though there are a few species that are dimorphic, having distinctive markings differentiating the male from the female. If the sex is not visually obvious, it can be be determined by either a surgical probe, endoscopy, which can be done by many veterinarians or by a DNA testing, usually a blood sample or a few plucked feathers sent to be diagnosed in a lab.
Most breeders will keep young birds in a pen together until after the first molt and let them pick their own mate. This usually works, though sometimes what you think is a pair is two of the same sex. If a pair lays three or more eggs, then you have two hens.

This extract comes from: http://animal-world.com/encyclo/birds/doves_pigeons/DovePigeonProfile.htm

Teresa wrote:

I've been trying to get more information on sexing pigeons from the professional associations

Thanks for sharing this article/ link Ms.Teresa

Teresa wrote:

The best method is to let the growing pigeons choose a mate, and then keep the pair together -- but this can occasionally lead to same-sex pairings

Toink.. Same sex pairing is a disaster between males.

•Sexing:

Teresa wrote:

Many doves and pigeons are not easily sexed though there are a few species that are dimorphic.

I wish my pidgies came from a dimorphic breed.

Teresa wrote:

If a pair lays three or more eggs, then you have two hens.

Does this idea suggest that a hen pigeon can lay eggs in the absence of a male?