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 Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)

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priya
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plamenh
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PostSubject: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 12:39 pm

Paratyphoid (Salmonellosis)
Salmonellosis has one of the highest mortality rates of any infectious bacterial disease of pigeons.
Pathogen:
Salmonella typhimurium var. copenhagen, designated as the "pigeon type" salmonella strain. Given the right conditions, the bacterium can remain infective in the environment for 1 year or more.
Salmonellae are spread by:
· inhalation of dust containing the pathogen
· contaminated feed (insects, mice, rats)
· dirty feed troughs and water bowls
· mating
· transmission from the hen to the egg
· feeding the nestlings with infected crop milk and billing
· chronic carriers: pigeons that appear healthy after surviving salmonella infection but shed the pathogen at irregular intervals and thus pose a risk to the current flock and their progeny.
Clinical signs:
Acute form (mainly affects young pigeons):
Enteritis with pulpy, mucoid, greenish droppings; once organs (liver, kidneys, spleen) have become infected, there is growth retardation, emaciation and (in isolated cases) death. Embryos infected with salmonellae frequently die in ovo or during the first few days of life.
Chronic form (mainly affects adult pigeons):
Inflammation causes a thickening of the joints, especially the elbow joint, wing or leg lameness, disorders of balance and torsion of the neck. Recognition of the disease:
Bacteriological examination of faecal and/or organ samples. An antibiogram is performed to determine which medication is suitable for treatment purposes.
By the localization of the infection
1. Enteric Form – In older birds enteric form of the disease may go unnoticed for weeks or months. Droppings remain normal until bird is exposed to stress. Then drastic weight loss may follow with mucous, smelly faeces. Every pigeon losing condition in absence of worm infestation is suspect for paratyphoid. Squaekers and babies are severely affected. Diarrhea and faeces coated vent feathers are seen. Rapid loss of condition and high mortality.

2. Articular form – This form occurs in both, young and old pigeons. Bacteria enters body orally multiply in intestine and localize in one or more joints. The elbow joint of the wing is most commonly affected. Joint on examination is swollen, hot and painfull. Yellow fluid may ooze from the skin.
Wing/leg lameness caused by Paramixovirus can be identical to this condition but in PMV cases there is no joint swelling. Careful examination is essential.

3. Nervous form – bacteria affects brain tissue causing inflammation and various nervous signs: loss of balance, stargazing, neck twisting, convulsions etc. Condition is very similar to PMV

4. Internal form – possibly most serious form of disease. Usually internal organs are affected with tissue stasis. Young birds die rapidly, while old birds due to stronger immune system usually develop chronic form of disease. Diarrhea, short of breath, sometimes small abscess bellow the lower eyelids, occasionally blindness on one or both eyes may occur.

5. Reproductive form – usually is classified under internal form. It can affect male bird by leaving it sterile. In females affects ovary and results single egg laying, sterility or abnormally shaped eggs. Infection of eggs through faeces may occur and in this case bacteria infects embryo and results dead in shell youngsters or sudden death after hatching.

Similar conditions:
Paramyxovirus infection, Ornithosis, Coccidiosis, worm infestation, organ form of Trichomoniasis.

Treatment:
Upon appearance of the symptoms described, treatment with chloramphenicol-N should be started immediately. In some cases it is necessary to change the treatment (e.g. to ampicillin-t) when the results of the bacteriological examination and antibiogram become available.
Other antibiotics:
Kanamycin: Dosage: .01 mgl to one gram of body weight intramuscularly twice daily. Gentamycin: Dosage: .01 mg to one gram of body weight intramuscularly once daily or 25 mg. to 120 ml of drinking water orally.
Trimethoprim/Sulfamethoxazole Suspension: Dosage .002 ml to one gram of body weight orally twice daily.
Sodium Sulfachiorpridazine Powder: Dosage ¼ tsp to 120 ml drinking water

Antidiarrheals – supportive treatment:
Pepto Bismol: Coats the intestinal tract and helps to form a firmer stool. Dosage 2-3 drops in the mouth, 3 times daily.
Kaopectate: Daolin and pectin coat the intestinal tract and form a firmer stool. Dosage 3 drops in the mouth 3 times daily.
Treat the entire flock rather than individual birds. Separate severely affected pigeons before beginning the treatment, individual treatment and additional support are required.
To check the outcome of the treatment, carry out bacteriological examinations on faecal samples. These should take place at least 14 days after termination of treatment, and then repeated twice at 3-week intervals.

Note: Use antibiotics which have a high degree of success such as Baytril, Saraflox, Cephalexin, and Amoxicillin.
My drug of choice is Chloramphenicol or Amoxicillin, use 3 Grams per gallon. Treat for 10 days.
Hand feeding, multivitamins and electrolytes are required as supportive care for severely affected birds.

Yes, birds can be cured of paratyphoid but one is never sure if this is the case after treatment. . Some will remain as carriers but there are lots of carriers out there anyhow, so overreacting is not necessary.

Prevention:
Most of the time, prevention involves avoiding overcrowding, minimizing stress, optimizing nutrition, and maintaining good basic loft hygiene.


Last edited by plamenh on Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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plamenh
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 1:04 pm

Escherichia coli – E-coli
Alongside salmonellae, Escherichia coli are among the most frequent causes of bacterial enteropathies in pigeons.

Pathogen:
E.coli is part of the normal gut flora of humans and warm-blooded animals. Coli bacteria excreted in the faeces can survive in the environment for many months, maintaining their ability to multiply. Coli bacteria enter the digestive tract or respiratory organs - and even the air sacs - with contaminated feed or water, or alternatively with respiratory air, enveloped in dust particles.

Course of the disease:
Profuse multiplication of pathogenic E.coli bacteria rapidly results in severe enteritis, which in turn leads to considerable loss of water and electrolytes. Pathogenic coli bacteria can also enter the bloodstream and colonise individual organs. The result is a systemic disorder, known as colisepticaemia, which after an acute course can end in death either within a few hours or only after several days.

Symptoms of the disease:
The clinical picture is characterized by typical signs of a systemic disorder, such as listlessness, refusal of feed, increased water uptake and onset of emaciation. The respiratory tract may also be involved, especially the air sacs. Green soft to slimy droppings, crop stasis , depression, vomiting, weight loss, sudden death etc. During the breeding period, infertility, soft shelled eggs, dead hatchlings, black eggs, poorly absorbed yolk may be observed.

Recognition of the disease:
Bacteriological examination of organ samples. Examination must take place within 24 hours of the pigeon dying, since normal enteric coli bacteria can rapidly colonize the organs of the dead bird and thus make it difficult to demonstrate the actual causative organism. The appropriate medication for treatment is determined with the aid of an antibiogram.

Similar conditions:
Salmonellosis, Hexamitiasis, Coccidiosis.

Treatment:
Antibiotics are indicated with Baytril, Amoxicillin or Sulfas being commonly recommended. One needs to consider what is or might be the primary disease.
Note: Amoxicillin is my first choice of antibiotics when "shooting from the hip". It is gentle on the pigeon and is the least expensive of the good antibiotics. Use 3 Grams per gallon for about 7 days.

Prevention:
Most of the time, prevention involves avoiding overcrowding, minimizing stress, optimizing nutrition, and maintaining good basic loft hygiene. Use of probiotic is of great importance to infection prevention because good gut bacteria create inhospitable environment for e-coli and salmonella. Organic acids like citric acid, ACV also helps
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 1:07 pm

plamenh...two fabulous posts. Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) 226817
I have read and I will need to find it, if infected birds are treated 3 weeks rather than two, they do not reamin carriers. I can't find it just now because I need to leave.
Does anyone else remember the same?
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 1:38 pm

If you treat with Chlor-tetracycline - 3 weeks (5 days medication, 2 days detox on vitamins, 5 day medication, 2 days detox, 5 day medication)
If you treat with Chloramphenicol - 2 weeks (5 day medication, 2 day detox, 5 day medication)
Still you never know.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: I found it!   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 5:38 pm

Matilda wrote:
plamenh...two fabulous posts. Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) 226817
I have read and I will need to find it, if infected birds are treated 3 weeks rather than two, they do not reamin carriers. I can't find it just now because I need to leave.
Does anyone else remember the same?

http://www.ifpigeon.com/IF/articles/if_article_healthy_pigeons.html
From and article by Steven Weir DVM

Paratyphoid: Salmonella causes the disease paratyphoid in pigeons. It is a bacterial infection that causes a multitude of possible symptoms including sudden death of apparently healthy birds of any age, joint infections causing a dropped wing or lameness, infertility in cocks and hens, diarrhea, weight loss, etc, etc. This is a treatable disease and is best treated with Batril (250 mg/gallon) or Cipro (750 mg/gallon) for 10 14 days. Baytril (and I assume Cipro) has been shown to get rid of the carrier state of salmonella so you no longer must destroy infected birds. Remember these drugs should not be used while breeding and raising babies. Vaccination is available and is a good idea, especially if you have had a problem with the disease before. The vaccine contains an immune stimulant and seems to really give birds a boost of great health when used about 3 - 4 weeks before the race season. This disease is carried by rodents so you must keep them out of your loft to prevent possible infection in your birds.


Not that we ever would have destroyed them. Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) 5244


Last edited by Matilda on Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Streptococcus...sorry about the form   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 6:43 pm

Streptococcus:
An acute or even peracute death in pigeons has been attributed to Streptococcus gallolyticus (previously known as S bovis).34 The primary sign in most birds is inability to fly (or deviant flying behavior) and dropped wings. Others have green, foamy droppings and sometimes loss of appetite, polyuria, polydipsia, and swollen abdomen. Birds that have acute disease presents with septicemia. Old and young birds are affected; young birds have pericarditis and old birds often have abnormal yellowing of the breast muscles. A chronic lameness has also been reported.
Nearly 40% of all pigeons carry streptococci in the gastrointestinal tract without clinical signs. It may be part of normal flora but can be a facultative pathogen. Clinical signs are usually not present if confined to the gastrointestinal tract. The disease can easily be mistaken for paramyxovirus and salmonellosis but is usually more acute. Amoxicillin is an effective treatment if instituted early enough. In the human literature, S gallolyticus is developing resistance to tetracyclines and erythromycin, so obtaining a culture before antibiotic administration is ideal.35


The information above was taken from an article which I purchased...yes purchased...here...https://www.sciencedirect.com/science. Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) 458406


Last edited by Matilda on Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 10:56 pm

Lead poisoning can also be added to this list as some of the symptoms are similar to those of PMV.

* * * * *
Lead poisoning is the most commonly reported poisoning of pet and wild birds. Lead toxicity not only occurs in urban areas, but in rural and suburban neighborhoods as well. Clinical signs of poisoning can be variable and depend on how much lead is eaten.

Symptoms include:
•Loss of appetite, listlessness, weakness
•Loose droppings with abnormal color (green, black, pink, bloody)
•Vomiting, increased thirst
Neurological signs to include blindness, incoordination, lameness, seizures

Diagnosis of lead toxicity is made by measuring blood lead concentration. This is a simple test requiring small amounts of blood. X-rays can be helpful in making the diagnosis and determining duration of treatment. X-rays may reveal lead particles
in the gastrointestinal tract necessitating a longer period of therapy.

If lead poisoning is suspected from clinical signs and x-rays, treatment should begin immediately while waiting for blood lead results (which can take several days). Therapy consists of injectable medication (calcium EDTA) and supportive care for hospitalized birds. If diagnosed early, treatment is usually
successful.

Preventative measures should be taken to remove all potential sources of lead from your pet’s environment. All birds should be caged when unsupervised. Some items
containing lead, which may be found in the environment, include:

•Hardware: old paint, plaster, galvanized wire, putty, solder, batteries
•Houseware: drapery weights, ceramic dishware, costume jewelry, alarm tape
•Furniture: Tiffany lamps, stained glass, mirrors, wrought iron welding
•Sporting goods: fishing weights, shotgun pellets

If necessary, testing the bird's environment may be helpful in eliminating potential sources of lead. Call your local department of health for information on testing.
Remember that prevention is the best medicine!
Link to the article Lead Poisoning in Birds

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A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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plamenh
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 1:27 pm

Ornithosis (Chlamydiosis, Psittacosis)

Ornithosis is an infectious disease that affects many bird species worldwide. It can also be transmitted to humans and other mammals.
Pathogen:
Chlamydia psittaci. Chlamydia are small, non-motile micro-organisms that invade cells parasitically. Infection occurs via inhalation of stirred-up dust containing the pathogen, uptake of faecally contaminated feed or water, or else billing or feeding of squabs. Young birds 2-4 weeks are most susceptible. They develop diarrhea and within 4~15 days rapidly lose condition and die. Chlamydia damage mainly liver, spleen and bone marrow. Heart in affected birds may be enlarged too.

Symptoms of the disease:
Ornithosis occurs in 2 forms:
The acute form can be recognized in young pigeons from: wheezing noises, uni- or bilateral conjunctivitis and muco-aqueous enteritis with diarrhea. Affected eyes has swelled eyelids and coroneas become moist. Moisture in the eyes appears bubbly. Infected eye is irritating bird and bird is scratching it with leg and rubbing it to the shoulder causing wet patches on the wing/s. The wattles are slightly moist and discolored. Eyelid may stick together, discoloration of the iris may follow and birds may sneeze frequently. Mucous membrane of the throat changes color to bluish gray. The skin of the pectoral muscles become bluish too. Bird often have loose green droppings and rapidly lose condition. Mortality in old birds is low, young birds are more susceptible.
The chronic form is more often found in adult birds, which, however, show few or no signs of the disease. Pigeons that have recovered are a dangerous source of infection for young pigeons and for humans due to their latent shedding of the pathogen.

Recognition of the disease:
The disease can be demonstrated in dead pigeons by microscopic examination of a smear or impression ("klatch") preparation of spleen, liver, conjunctiva or air sac that has first been stained using the method according to Stamp. In live birds, the pathogen is demonstrated in faeces, via a sink dab from the cloaca, or alternatively by serological identification of specific antibodies.

Similar conditions:
Infectious catarrh, Salmonellosis, Paramyxovirus infection.

Treatment:
Treat using a "cycline" with or without Tylan for 10 days. Doxycycline is the better one if available. The chronic form can be eliminated if used for 45 days. LS-50 is another effective product. One must clean and disinfect the loft extremely well though or infection will return from the environment. New birds, strays or wild birds can also reintroduce the disease. (Remove calcium grit while medicating with “cycline” drugs)
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plamenh
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeFri Nov 20, 2009 1:15 am

Please note!
As a source of information for published materials in my posts on pigeon diseases, beside my own experience has been used various additional sources of information

Internet pages: (Chevita GmbH. Oropharma Versele Laga, Mareck Manual, MedPet Голуби etc.)
Books (Colin Osman – Racing Pigeons, Dr. L Schlag – Healthy Pigeon, Dr. Wim Peters – Fit To Win, Altman, R. B., S. L. Clubb, G. M. Dorrestein, K. Quesenberry - Avian
Medicine and Surgery, Carpenter, J. W., T. Y. Machima, D. J. Rupiper - Exotic Animal Formulary, Collins, C. H., J. M. Grange - Isolations and identifications of Microorganisms of Medical and Veterinary Importance, Bolesti Ptiza i Kucnih Ljubimaca – Sabrana djela etc.)
Publications: Dr Colin Walker, Gordon A Chalmers DVM, Dr. O.J. Botha etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeFri Nov 20, 2009 11:57 am

Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) 686336 for posting the sources from which you obtained your information, Plamenh. Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) 142829

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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priya
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeSat Nov 21, 2009 7:06 am

Great post. Thanks to you all...very much needed
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeSat Nov 21, 2009 7:35 am

Thank You circling all - great concentrated and accumulated info in one place. This is what one needs when actual.
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeSat Nov 21, 2009 8:49 am

I had no idea that PMV symptoms were similar to so many other illnesses. Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) 782750

The subject, and content, of this thread has pointed out that we need to consider ALL possibilities when diagnosing a bird that has been placed in our care.

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Cindy

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Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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PostSubject: Symptoms of heavy metal poisioning   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeSat Nov 21, 2009 12:26 pm

Heavy Metal Poisoning


Index of Bird Diseases ... Symptoms & Potential Causes ... Bird Species & Diseases They are Most Susceptible to ... Bird Health Care

Bird Health / Avian Medicine Library: Shipped out of:: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) USAflag .. Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Canadaflag .. Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Germanflag .. Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) UKflag

Toxicities in Your Home / Safe & Healthy Alternatives ... Lead in your Drinking Water
Birds: Sources of Heavy Metal Poisoning ... First Aid Instructions (Birds).

Lead or zinc poisoning can happen quickly or build up slowly over time depending on how much of the metal a bird ingests, how much of the toxin is present, and other factors.
Behavioral changes, such as screaming, might happen because the bird is in pain and otherwise uncomfortable.
Many of the below symptoms also appear in other types of illnesses. If you suspect your pet has ingested something inedible, a vet visit is recommended. If you can, bring the object with you.

  • Click here for heavy metal testing kits as well as an easy and tasty recipe that will help your body get rid of heavy metal toxins. Bird owners are also feeding some to their birds to help get rid of toxins they may have ingested.


Heavy Metal Poisoning in Birds:
Toxins
Sources
Symptoms / Clinical Signs
Zinc

  • Galvanized wire cages, toys, chains and water or food bowls (galvanized coatings may contain up to 99.9% zinc)
  • Zinc hardware (washers, nuts, wire)
  • U.S. pennies minted after 1983


  • Lethargy
  • Shallow respiration
  • Anorexia / less appetite
  • Decreased body weight
  • Weakness; falling of perch; unable to walk, stand or fly straight
  • Polyuria, polydipsia
  • Diarrhea
  • Hemolytic anemia
  • Kidney dysfunction


  • Cyanosiss
  • Possible liver and pancreatic abnormalities
  • Regurgitation
  • Feather pickings
  • Pale mucous membranes
  • Shivering
  • Melena
  • Death
Lead

  • Lead paint chips
  • Twist ties
  • Tooth brushes
  • Plastic / vinyl coverings
  • Cardboard boxes with dyes
  • Imported candy / food packaging wrapping/labels
  • Crystal
  • Fishing sinkers
  • Some artist paints
  • Lead weights
  • Lead hardware
  • Lead-containing
  • Stainless glass windows
  • Venetian blinds
  • Lead-coated household products
  • Some wine/champagne bottle foil
  • Plumbing material
  • Solder in stained glass/Tiffany style lamps
  • Lead shot
  • Tile, linoleum
  • Improperly glazed bowls
  • Some antiques
  • Curtain weights
  • Shower curtain weight
  • Fishing sinkers
  • Tire weights
  • Batteries


  • Depression
  • Weakness; falling of perch; unable to walk, stand or fly straight
  • Anorexia
  • Regurgitation / vomiting
  • Abnormal droppings / blood in droppings, red urine
  • Polyuria
  • Polydipsia
  • Greenish-black diarrhea


  • Ataxia
  • Head tilt
  • Seizures
  • Blindness
  • Hematuria (Amazon parrots)
  • Death

Effects on the Body

  • Absorbed lead is retained by soft tissues and eventually by bone and is slowly excreted through the kidneys.
  • Lead affects the CNS, renal, hematopoietic, neurologic and gastrointestinal systems.
  • Lead can cause cerebral edema and neuronal damage, demyelination and decreased peripheral nerve conduction peripherally.
  • Lead can cause anemia through increasing RBC fragility.
  • Bone marrow suppression is also a potential effect
www.avianweb.com/heavymetalpoisioningbirds.html
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeSat Nov 21, 2009 5:08 pm

Plamenh - you, as I, have seen a lot of PMV and have pigeons who had the virus.

All the information on these other conditions leads me to an obvious question - how do you decide that a pigeon does have PMV?
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeSat Nov 21, 2009 6:25 pm

John, I'm not plamen but I think that is an excellent question. The intention of this thread was to identify illnesses with symptoms similar to PMV.
How about moving your question, to a new thread for discussion and have this one remain for information and reference purposes.
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeSun Nov 22, 2009 12:42 am

For John_D:
Symptoms alone may belong to the different diseases. Here I mean that when I get new bird in obvious bad condition, I cannot say offhand what it is. I need to spend time with her watch and determine what may be the problem. I use that time to treat bird for canker, cocci and parasites (which is good idea in any case with feral birds).
One of the most important tests that it is difficult to describe in words is smell. Of course every person has different perception and association of smells that’s why it is difficult to explain.
Strong, sour smell (cheese, worn socks, spoiled milk, changing room in the gym…) is the symptom of canker, mycoplasma or fungi.
Sweet decaying smell (cheap perfume, car interior when parked on the sun, maple syrup…) leads my thoughts towards salmonella or PMV.
Next is check poop and sensitivity to light (PMV and salmonells differ)
When wing/leg is affected in PMV there is no joint swelling.
For a long time I plan to put on writing methods and ways I use to examine my birds and determine problems. It may be useful even for me to systematize my thoughts and exchange experience with others.
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeSun Nov 22, 2009 1:23 pm

plamenh wrote:
For John_D:
Symptoms alone may belong to the different diseases. Here I mean that when I get new bird in obvious bad condition, I cannot say offhand what it is. I need to spend time with her watch and determine what may be the problem. I use that time to treat bird for canker, cocci and parasites (which is good idea in any case with feral birds).
One of the most important tests that it is difficult to describe in words is smell. Of course every person has different perception and association of smells that’s why it is difficult to explain.
Strong, sour smell (cheese, worn socks, spoiled milk, changing room in the gym…) is the symptom of canker, mycoplasma or fungi.
Sweet decaying smell (cheap perfume, car interior when parked on the sun, maple syrup…) leads my thoughts towards salmonella or PMV.
Next is check poop and sensitivity to light (PMV and salmonells differ)
When wing/leg is affected in PMV there is no joint swelling.
For a long time I plan to put on writing methods and ways I use to examine my birds and determine problems. It may be useful even for me to systematize my thoughts and exchange experience with others.

What is so important, are those things that do distinguish definitively PMV from all the rest.
I am extremely uncomfortable telling an individual that has found a pigeon with NS, that the cause is PMV. Doing so may mean the bird doesn't receive the treatment needed to save it's life.
I think we need to have a dicussion about what does differenctiate PMV from from the other conditions identified in this thread.
Plamen you have made a good start with this post.
All imput is wecomed from members experienced with PMV victims.
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 23, 2009 8:02 am

plamenh wrote:
For a long time I plan to put on writing methods and ways I use to examine my birds and determine problems. It may be useful even for me to systematize my thoughts and exchange experience with others.
It would be great if you all could start this. Would really help newbies like me. Not only PMV but all the other common diseases too.
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 23, 2009 4:24 pm

Plamenh, I agree absolutely that it is observing what is happening with the bird in one's care. The smell thing is very interesting (though my sense of smell is not great). And, yes, I think it can be a case of being aware of what is not there as well as what is with any sick bird. I tend to use "balance of probabilities". If a bird shows at least three distinct symptoms previously identified in PMV cases (particularly from the same area), then it's pretty likely to be PMV in the absence of anything that just didn't seem to fit. One odd thing, totally non-scientific, that has been common to most PMV cases in full swing I've seen was that aside from the effects of the virus, the birds actually 'seemed healthy'. That is, they attempted to behave as if they had no problem. That's something I find hard to explain exactly - I know birds will try to cover up as a survival mechanism, but this is somehow different.

(I also like the idea of looking at other symptoms that could seem similar in different illnesses, not just PMV)
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 23, 2009 4:30 pm

John...by healthy do you mean, a good weight?
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 23, 2009 5:45 pm

Matilda wrote:
John...by healthy do you mean, a good weight?

No - some were about what I'd expect, but MiniPidge and Sweetie from my balcony were very underweight, probably because of their inability to pick up and hold onto more than a very few items of food. They both got a Spartrix and later, Moxidectin+, as preventatives but otherwise no actual medications. Both went through the neck twisting, seed tossing, spinning, walking backwards and appearance of twirling feather dusters attempting to fly before they eventually lost the most obvious symptoms.

As I say, it's more a behavioral thing and difficult to explain.

Once I'd had them inside for just over a week, I allowed them the freedom of the bedroom floor on days when I was home, after feeding them breakfast. Both were flightless at first, but didn't just sit around. Mini would attack my feet as I cleand out their cages, both would try to tear my hand off at any opportunity. They liked to wander around, occasionally tussled if Mini (the worst affected) accidentally walked backwards into Sweetie. Sweetie, who recovered quickest, liked to be up aloft and would practically run up the height of two cages then 'parachute' down, before she regained flight. Mini hated me taking her out or putting her in her cage and insisted on doing it herself even if it was with some difficulty. They could drink from the water pots but though they tossed seed everywhere for the first three weeks, they had good appetites and tried their darndest to eat when they wanted to! Mini's attempts at preening were not always successful, but she would spend plenty of time doing her best. It wasn't even that easy catching them for their evening feed and bedtime - could they run! Really, within the limitations of the PMV, they just carried on like any other pigeon I've had in, and that's been the case with almost every one.

Long response to a short question, I'm afraid, but maybe some way to explaining what sounds like an odd way of describing a sick pigeon

Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 23, 2009 6:49 pm

Capuccino wrote:
Matilda wrote:
John...by healthy do you mean, a good weight?

No - some were about what I'd expect, but MiniPidge and Sweetie from my balcony were very underweight, probably because of their inability to pick up and hold onto more than a very few items of food. They both got a Spartrix and later, Moxidectin+, as preventatives but otherwise no actual medications. Both went through the neck twisting, seed tossing, spinning, walking backwards and appearance of twirling feather dusters attempting to fly before they eventually lost the most obvious symptoms.

As I say, it's more a behavioral thing and difficult to explain.

Once I'd had them inside for just over a week, I allowed them the freedom of the bedroom floor on days when I was home, after feeding them breakfast. Both were flightless at first, but didn't just sit around. Mini would attack my feet as I cleand out their cages, both would try to tear my hand off at any opportunity. They liked to wander around, occasionally tussled if Mini (the worst affected) accidentally walked backwards into Sweetie. Sweetie, who recovered quickest, liked to be up aloft and would practically run up the height of two cages then 'parachute' down, before she regained flight. Mini hated me taking her out or putting her in her cage and insisted on doing it herself even if it was with some difficulty. They could drink from the water pots but though they tossed seed everywhere for the first three weeks, they had good appetites and tried their darndest to eat when they wanted to! Mini's attempts at preening were not always successful, but she would spend plenty of time doing her best. It wasn't even that easy catching them for their evening feed and bedtime - could they run! Really, within the limitations of the PMV, they just carried on like any other pigeon I've had in, and that's been the case with almost every one.

Long response to a short question, I'm afraid, but maybe some way to explaining what sounds like an odd way of describing a sick pigeon

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No that's great, John. The detail is helpful.
Any symptom or symptoms that you have noticed that are only associated with PMV?
Example...several years ago, I noticed a feral flying backward in my yard. She actually hit the side of my house in her attempt to fly away. She wasn't difficult to catch and so I started her on baytril. Her weight was good but she was unable to pick up seed. Within 5 days she could pick up seed on her own. Within 7 days on baytril she was steady on her feet and one could not tell that there had been anything wrong with her.
I did release her in my yard and recognize her from the band I put on her leg. I see her every day and have not noticed the symptoms return in any way. As she recovered quickly, I would doubt she had PMV. I will never know if she would have recovered had I not given antibiotic.
This is a very confusing subject. How can we possibly explain to someone that has found a Pigeon with NS...knows nothing about Pigeons... what the problem may be?
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 25, 2009 9:45 am

Maybe this is a better way to ask the question...

Suppose we are contacted by a good Samaritan.... a Pigeon has been found with NS. We can't see the Pigeon with our own eyes...we can't smell the Pigeon and the finder doesn't know where the Pigeon came from.
This is a a really critical question...what is the one thing or two symptoms, that if decribed to us, we can say...this is PMV?
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PostSubject: Re: Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)   Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 25, 2009 11:17 am

Matilda wrote:
Maybe this is a better way to ask the question...

Suppose we are contacted by a good Samaritan.... a Pigeon has been found with NS. We can't see the Pigeon with our own eyes...we can't smell the Pigeon and the finder doesn't know where the Pigeon came from.

This is a a really critical question...what is the one thing or two symptoms, that if decribed to us, we can say...this is PMV?

You have presented a very good question, Charis.
I, personally, don't know the answer.
I do know that when someone contacts us for assistance, either by way of this site, or personally, we are responsible for answering their question(s) to the best of our ability. And in order to do that, we need to consider all the possibilities of each situation.

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