Pigeon illnesses with symptoms (similar to PMV)

First of all, I would like to put accent on PMV (Paramixovirus). Most people are panicking, when PMV is in question. There is a bad name placed on this disease because Vets will not treat affected feral/wild birds for simple reason, they are not releasable. Racers will not keep recovered birds, as they will not get top results.
Birds affected with PMV are absolutely capable to breed and live long and happy life. Person who cares for them just need to simply perceive them as pets.
Let say you have a bird that has some of the following symptoms:
Optical nerve affected
- Eye twitching and eyelid tremors (looks as bird has something in the eye/s and tries to remove it with fast blinking)
- Neck twisting in all directions (somewhat as bird wants to have better look on something)
- Sometimes blindness on one or both eyes (advanced stage)
Lung and throat irritation
- Sneezing
- Increased water intake
General condition impaired
- Ruffled feathers
- Listlessness
- Reluctant to fly
- Reduced food intake
- Periodical hunger (bird is eating greedily and then suddenly stops and like fells a sleep)
- Reduced self-defense instinct (bird lets you come close and does not notice you)
Neurological signs
- Neck twisting
- Stargazing
- Walking backwards
- Walking in the circles
- Strange un-even flight
- Crash landing
- Trashing on the ground
- Unable to pick seeds
- Seeds tossing (bird twists head in all direction, often walks backwards and seed falls of)
Paralysis without swelling
- Wing dropped (one or both)
- Leg (one or both)
Droppings- Watery with thin broken faecal material
- Bright yellow, light greed or orange
- Smelly
Feathering
- Untidy appearance
- Strangely formed feathers with “flag” or yellow fluff at the tip
- Discoloration of feathers (white patches)

This is symptoms that we may observe in different stages of disease. For inexperienced person, neurological signs and poops are the most certain way to guess that this may be PMV.

Matilda wrote:

Maybe this is a better way to ask the question...

Suppose we are contacted by a good Samaritan.... a Pigeon has been found with NS. We can't see the Pigeon with our own eyes...we can't smell the Pigeon and the finder doesn't know where the Pigeon came from.
This is a a really critical question...what is the one thing or two symptoms, that if decribed to us, we can say...this is PMV?

For me, having a bird right here and observing everything is one thing, but trying to establish what a problem is over a distance and sight unseen is a different ball game.

If someone says "I have this pigeon I found, it can't fly and it keeps turning it's head over" then what can anyone deduce? PMV? Paratyphoid? Head trauma? Whatever I think, I prefer to have the person check the list of most evident symptoms or look at a couple of video clips and see what matches, to see if PMV is a good possibility or not. If they say, yes, my bird pecks for food and misses, and he spins in circles, and if he does pick up seed he seems to go 'into a convulsion' ... well, those together would say PMV to me. I think a lot can depend on how well the other person can describe what's going on.

Mickey just didn't fly off with the flock, and carried on pecking on snow covered ground for food. Nothing more than that. Only took a moment to see that he couldn't fly, but the only other thing was the fine tremor of the head (Plamenh describes it pretty much, above). That was enough to arouse suspicion, since we already had two other definite PMV cases found only days before. Then, during initial isolation, Mickey developed further symptoms. But, until then, he could eat, never 'looked sick' and had no sign of injury or swellings that might prevent him flying. He could have taken a knock to the head for all I knew.

That was OK, but I wouldn't want to opt for any specific cause over a few hundred or thousand miles based on how he presented initially. In fact, one thing I definitely dislike about one forum is that apparent readiness of some to 'diagnose' with virtually nothing to go on and direct a rescuer to give a bird this or that 'in case'. I've seen a handful of truly outlandish possibilities suggested with no real basis, probably because somebody found something on the web which seemed to fit. That can kill a bird, not 'cure' it!

OK John and Plamen...this is the question....is there any one sypmtom or symptoms from palmen's list above, that can be contirbuted to PMV alone? If so...which one or ones?

For inexperienced person, neurological signs and poops are the most certain way to guess that this may be PMV.

I appreciate all the input and information that has been posted here.

This is truly a complex issue. With that said . . .
From what I'm reading, in reality, there really doesn't seem to be any one, or even two specific symptoms that sets PMV aside from any other illness.

Of course there are not one or two symptoms in PMV that will set it apart. It would be wonderful if we could distinguish clearly one disease from another just by one or two symptoms. We are always talking "most common symptoms" because every bird is different by age, condition, immunity, history and even attitude. Their reactions to diseases are also different.
Lets say for argument sake I complain about headache, possible cause can be:
- Flu
- High blood pressure
- Viral encephalitis
- Meningitis
- Tumor
- Hunger
- Pregnancy
- Stress
- Overheating
- Eyes problem
- Exhaustion
- Alcohol abuse
- Concussion
I can go forever.
Unfortunately in life things are rarely black and white. We are forced usually to pick some shade of gray – closest match to what we know.
The more experience one has, more facts, symptoms and time for observation, better the chances to guess real cause of the problem.
Doctors and Veterinarians with their education, laboratory analysis equipment and expertise also often rely on the chance/luck and use guesswork.
One of the best solution we have though is each other. Anytime I’m in doubt I can ask you all and switch to what in computers is called multitasking and multiprocessing.
This way I’m eliminating possibilities that I can't see the wood for the trees'.

Fancyfeathers wrote:

I appreciate all the input and information that has been posted here.

This is truly a complex issue. With that said . . .
From what I'm reading, in reality, there really doesn't seem to be any one, or even two specific symptoms that sets PMV aside from any other illness.

Neurological symptoms would certainly set aside PMV from an illness where those are not indicated, so I assume you mean other lllnesses where neurological symptoms may be present.


Chevita's list of symptoms of illnesses provides only PMV as the cause for these:

Droppings, formed but in puddles
Overturning (whatever they mean by that)
Walking backwards

Not that I necessarily agree, but then what they say is only as good as the source(s) from which they got their information. Some droppings in great puddles, such as we found with Noelle (from my balcony, Christmas 2006), could also indicate diabetes but that is, so I read, pretty rare in pigeons.

From noting common symptoms from 30+ PMV birds I'd propose a small sample

Uncontrolled spinning in circles
Seed tossing
Zonking out - suddenly, at any time of day and in any circumstances, going into a temporary and apparently deep sleep (often after a burst of hyperactivity)

I can't say I've seen these referenced as consistent symptoms of any other illness, but what do I know?

Actually, it would be interesting to know how frequently anyone has suspected the 'nervous form' of Salmonellosis and had that confirmed as the correct diagnosis, since that's the most likely one to demonstrate some symptoms similar to PMV.

I have to say I'm wondering what is driving this keen focus on PMV anyway. What do you tell somebody with a pigeon which seems lame, and has swollen leg joints? Salmonellosis? Maybe, but it could also be Gout. What of a bird reported to have 'yellow stuff' in the mouth? I've seen three different options suggested 'elsewhere' for that. In the absence of first hand observation, we can only ask what we believe are the right questions, ask for pictures or video, and weigh up the responses, whatver the possibilities may appear to be.

I was just checking out the information that Charis posted about via this link:
https://pij-n-angels.forumotion.net/discussing-resources-f17/uk-members-t1027.htm
To get to where I obtained the information below, click Pigeons then Pathology on the homepage.

This was taken in part from the PMV section under Diagnosis.
Diagnosis is based largely on the clinical signs and it can be confirmed by blood tests.
The disease needs to be differentiated from Salmonellosis, other causes of wet droppings and other causes of nervous signs including poisoning.

Sure Cindy, information is correct.
In the perfect world doctors, labs, clinics and hospitals will sort out bird’s problem.
In South Africa for example there is no single lab, able to run tests on PMV for regular fancier or rescuer.
What do we do? We need to match two or three symptoms together to be able to narrow possible disease. The more symptoms and information better the chances for us to help bird. Usual scenario is race with time.

In most cases just following general steps – care for sick bird will save bird’s life.
1. Heat
2. Fluids
3. Nutrition’s (feeding or hand feeding)
4. Canker treatment
5. Coccidiosis treatment
6. Parasites treatment
7. Antibiotics for primary or secondary infections (I would suggest combination of two as one may not work on specific strain).
Steps 1,2,3 are performed during the whole period of treatment
Steps 4,5,6 first day when bird is treated
Step 7 from second day onwards until bird is healed if bird is in very bad condition even from day one.
For canker and Cocci treatment I prefer fast acting and safe drugs as Carnidazole and Diclazuril, for parasites Ivermectin and Prazenquantel.
If it is something that needs specific treatment, at least these steps will borrow you enough time to analyze situation and do required adjustments to the treatment.

plamenh wrote:

* Sure Cindy, information is correct.
In the perfect world doctors, labs, clinics and hospitals will sort out bird’s problem.

** In South Africa for example there is no single lab, able to run tests on PMV for regular fancier or rescuer. What do we do?

Thanks Plamenh. As usual your input is greatly appreciated.

* I thought this information was worthy of posting primarily because it actually states that PMV needs to be differentiated from Salmonellosis and other causes of wet droppings and nervous signs including poisoning.

** I do realize not everyone has the facilities to have PMV testing done. Perhaps being able to r/o some of the 'other' illnesses by test would be an option.

When I received Pij I was fairly new to the computer world and didn't navigate it well.
I presented his situation at PT back in 2003. It was suggested that he had PMV. There were no options. Just PMV.
I have learned through this thread and doing some research on my own that there are options and they all need to be considered.

Given what I have learned, I'm not as confident now, as I was back then, to say Pij did in fact have PMV.

plamenh wrote:

Sure Cindy, information is correct.
In the perfect world doctors, labs, clinics and hospitals will sort out bird’s problem.
In South Africa for example there is no single lab, able to run tests on PMV for regular fancier or rescuer.
What do we do? We need to match two or three symptoms together to be able to narrow possible disease. The more symptoms and information better the chances for us to help bird. Usual scenario is race with time.

In most cases just following general steps – care for sick bird will save bird’s life.
1. Heat
2. Fluids
3. Nutrition’s (feeding or hand feeding)
4. Canker treatment
5. Coccidiosis treatment
6. Parasites treatment
7. Antibiotics for primary or secondary infections (I would suggest combination of two as one may not work on specific strain).
Steps 1,2,3 are performed during the whole period of treatment
Steps 4,5,6 first day when bird is treated
Step 7 from second day onwards until bird is healed if bird is in very bad condition even from day one.
For canker and Cocci treatment I prefer fast acting and safe drugs as Carnidazole and Diclazuril, for parasites Ivermectin and Prazenquantel.
If it is something that needs specific treatment, at least these steps will borrow you enough time to analyze situation and do required adjustments to the treatment.

I love the way you have identified these steps, plamenh. It easy for another to follow.
Thank you.

Abstract

Sarcosporidian cysts in the skeletal muscle of domestic pigeons (Columba livia f. domestica) have previously been attributed to infection with Sarcocystis falcatula, which is shed in the faeces of the opossum (Didelphis virginiana). Here, we describe fatal spontaneous encephalitis and myositis associated with Sarcocystis infections in three flocks of racing pigeons with 47 of 244 animals affected. The clinical course was characterized by depression, mild diarrhoea, torticollis, opisthotonus, paralysis and trembling. Histopathological examination of 13 pigeons revealed generalized severe granulomatous and necrotizing meningoencephalitis and myositis with sarcosporidian cysts. Light and transmission electron microscopy identified cysts in heart and skeletal muscle of 1 to 2 mm in length and 20 to 50 µm in width. These were subdivided into small chambers by fine septae and filled with lancet-shaped cystozoites (7.51.5 µm) and dividing metrocytes, which is characteristic for Sarcocystis. The cysts had smooth walls and were devoid of protrusions typical of S. falcatula. Polymerase chain reaction amplification and sequencing of the internal transcribed spacer region (ITS-1) and the complete 28S rRNA identified a novel Sarcocystis species with only 51% ITS-1 nucleotide sequence similarity with S. falcatula. A phylogenetic comparison of the 28S rRNA revealed close sequence homologies with Frenkelia microti, Frenkelia glareoli and Sarcocystis neurona. The clinical, histopathological, electron microscopic and genetic data are unlike any previously described protozoan infections in pigeons, suggesting a novel, severe disease due to an as yet undescribed Sarcocystis species.

Thank you for posting the additional information, Charis.

Yes, thanks. That's interesting. Always something new. Hard to keep up. Everyone should come in here more often to check out what's new. Sure helps in trying to diagnose something.

Matilda wrote:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1589494

Wow! Charis, does this article mean that worms can migrate to the brain, or maybe even different parasites can do this as well? That's pretty scary. I wonder how often these symptoms are mistakenly treated as PMV? This gives us yet another reason to consider ALL possibilities when trying to treat a bird. Thank you for the info.

Matilda wrote:

http://netvet.wustl.edu/species/birds/aviandis.txt

Ya know, I never realized that aspergillus was so common. Lately I've been reading up on it because of another post, and it's scary. I mean, you can keep a clean dry loft, and clean the nest boxes frequently, but you can't know that it isn't already in your grit, or the seed you just purchased.

Charis, I hardly can follow marking all these sites for reading. Thank you for posting these links!!!!

NiteOwl wrote:

Matilda wrote:

http://netvet.wustl.edu/species/birds/aviandis.txt

Ya know, I never realized that aspergillus was so common. Lately I've been reading up on it because of another post, and it's scary. I mean, you can keep a clean dry loft, and clean the nest boxes frequently, but you can't know that it isn't already in your grit, or the seed you just purchased.

Jay, I'm not sure how many, but at least some species of Aspergillus are visible under a black light.

http://aes.missouri.edu/delta/croppest/aflacorn.stm

Best wishes,
Carol

Joyfulsongtree wrote:

NiteOwl wrote:

Matilda wrote:

http://netvet.wustl.edu/species/birds/aviandis.txt

Ya know, I never realized that aspergillus was so common. Lately I've been reading up on it because of another post, and it's scary. I mean, you can keep a clean dry loft, and clean the nest boxes frequently, but you can't know that it isn't already in your grit, or the seed you just purchased.

Jay, I'm not sure how many, but at least some species of Aspergillus are visible under a black light.

http://aes.missouri.edu/delta/croppest/aflacorn.stm

Best wishes,
Carol

That's true and thank you for that reminder.
The really frightening part of fungus to me, after all the reading I've done, is that it is very difficult to diagnose once the birds has a fungal infection. Because the symptoms are like that of a virus or bacterial infection, the real problem is often misdiagnosed either by laypersons, such as ourselves or veterinarian professionals.

NiteOwl wrote:

Matilda wrote:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1589494

Wow! Charis, does this article mean that worms can migrate to the brain, or maybe even different parasites can do this as well? That's pretty scary. I wonder how often these symptoms are mistakenly treated as PMV? This gives us yet another reason to consider ALL possibilities when trying to treat a bird. Thank you for the info.

Isn't it mind blowing?

NiteOwl wrote:

Matilda wrote:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1589494

Wow! Charis, does this article mean that worms can migrate to the brain, or maybe even different parasites can do this as well? That's pretty scary.

I wonder how often these symptoms are mistakenly treated as PMV?

This gives us yet another reason to consider ALL possibilities when trying to treat a bird. Thank you for the info.

My guess would be quite often.