Our little Pina is quite sick

My sweet little pigeon angel Pina is quite sick. It already started 2 days ago when she came in at 11°clock already instead of much later. You remember - I let her out since 2 weeks now after she had been hospitalized for 9 months!

Her poops had become quite mushy the last few days but I had hoped that this was only a small infection through her contacts with the other pijjies outside. The weather is awfully hot at the moment which is a great base for bacteria.

But it got worse. When I went to her box on Monday morning it looked awful: totally watery diarrhea with lots of dark green mucous like poop, she also had vomitted part of her supper. There were also little bloody pieces in the poop. When I checked her carefully I noticed that her abdomen was swollen and her vent looked somehow inflammated. So something was really wrong and giving her cinnamon tea was not enough. So I put her immediately on Baytril. Some time later I became suspicious and checked the 3 nests we have in the appartment - and voilà - there was an egg lying in Pina's nest, totally smeared with blood. She must have laid this on sunday without me noticing it. But she was not interested in it.

So I slightly got into panic yesterday because my instinct said that she was probably having difficulties to lay the second egg. So during lunchtime I gave her a warm bath, very softly stroking her abdomen for a couple of minutes, then I wrapped her up in a towel and put her back into the box for some rest. I also gave her only baby cereal with applesauce to eat so that she would not have additional difficulties to digest.

Later I let her out again and in the afternoon I realized that she had laid the second egg in another nest, with quite some blood on the egg again and on the paper stripes that are in the nest. This at least relieved me a bit, that the egg was out and that there was no direct life threatening danger any more. But my little angel was definitely still rather sick.

My suspicion is that due to egg laying time again her immune system got a little crack and the weather played an additional part in catching an infection.

This morning when I checked Pina's box I realized that the poop had become slightly better - not so watery any more but there was still a little blood to be seen and she had vomited a tiny bit again but not as much as yesterday.
So far during today there was no blood in her poop any more but her behaviour says that she is still feeling quite bad. My poor little baby. I leave her in her box most of the time as she is quite listless anyway in comparision to her cheerful character otherwise.

While I continue to give her the Baytril in the morning I started to give her calcium in the evening with some additional vitamins. I will try with some peas during lunchtime and see wether she vomits them. What else could I do?

Here are the photos of tonight's poop with some blood on the right:

Petra...I can understand why you are so worried ..... I would be too.

I think that you are doing all you can and you need to give the baytril and calcium a chance to work. You should see a difference within 36 hours of beginning the baytril.

You can give Pina a drop of pepto bismo before feeding and that may keep her from vomiting. Baytril will make them sick if given on an empty crop. Do give her yogart, with active cultures as well as the applesauce and peas.

If she were here...I would aslo treat her for canker.

I'm sending you all good energy for her complete recovery.

Charis, thank you! Can I give her Spartrix at the same time or when should I do this? Also should I give her some applesauce in the morning just before I give her the Baytril? I don't have that pepto bismo.

In the last dropping she just made was a tiny bit blood again. Is that an issue?

Also she has a strange behaviour when I let her out of the box: she constantly pecks at the carpets as if she wanted to eat the fibers. I find this very strange???

pigeonwriter wrote:

Charis, thank you! Can I give her Spartrix at the same time or when should I do this? Also should I give her some applesauce in the morning just before I give her the Baytril? I don't have that pepto bismo.

You should feed her before you give her the baytril. So give her applesauce, and peas...wait a hour or so and then give her the baytril.
Spartrix should be given at bedtime so the water is withheld.
Check the pharmacy and ask if they have a liquid for heart burn and diarrhea in humans... the
active ingredient is, bismuth subsalicylate
In the last dropping she just made was a tiny bit blood again. Is that an issue?

Does the calcium you are giving her have vitamin D3? Also...does she get grit?.

Also she has a strange behaviour when I let her out of the box: she constantly pecks at the carpets as if she wanted to eat the fibers. I find this very strange???

One thing I have noticed with coccidia patients is that they pick at odd things. What you said about the carpet made me wonder if she is over loaded with coccidia.

Petra...I'm sorrry I can't say anything for certain.

Charis, thank you again. Sorry I have a few questions again.

She regularly has access to grit but at the moment I have taken it away because of the Baytril.
Tomorrow I will change to feeding her before administering the Baytril.

Also I am not quite sure any more about the dosage of Baytril - it's a 2.5% solution. When I had to treat Alice I had to give her 0.28 ml as Alice had about 280 gr. Pina was on 330 gr so I gave her 0,33 ml. Is this correct?

The vitamins I am giving her in the evening in the applesauce do contain D3.

Also does the Spartrix not interfer with the calcium when I give that in the evening?

Oh Petra my heart goes out to you and little Pina :( What you have described certainly seems a lot for a sweet little pidgie to undergo :( she has already had enough troubles in the past. But i am glad she came to you for help and really relieved you could assist her in laying the second egg. Poor baby

Sending positive thoughts and healing prayers for little Pina I am sure she will bounce right back, as she always has, with all the love and care that she gets

Petra...give her the calcium mid day or 6-8 hours after the baytril and then spartrix in the evening.
The does of baytril you are giving her is on the high end.
2.5% =25mg per 1 ml or cc. For her weight, I would give half the amount you are giving, 1 time a day. My question is this...are you givng it straight without mixing it with water? You can.

Petra..........I am so sorry you are going through this will little Pina.

Both my little hens display the same type of poop prior to laying their eggs. I have heard of this from many people with hens so that could be considered normal. I only had a problem with blood with my Jackie, and that was only with her first laying. It never occured again.

You are giving her the calcium and the D3vitamin and hopefully that will take care of any deficiency in that regard.

As far as the vomiting is concerned I have found that giving some baby applesauce along with a few cc's of yogurt does help with the digestive issues. I also wait atleast one hour after feeding before administrating any medications. Baytril/Cipro tend to be very harsh on the digestive system.

I agree with Charis that there is a possible coccidia issue in play here. I would suggest you treat her for that as well.

I would keep her warm and confined for a little while to give her system a chance to settle down.

PETRA.........WHILE TYPING THIS I JUST RECEIVED A PHONE CALL FROM CHARIS.......SHE TOLD ME TO PASS ON TO YOU THAT SHE HAD A BRAIN FART!!!! YOUR ORIGINAL DOSAGE OF THE BAYTRIL WAS CORRECT. SO GO BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL DOSAGE. SHE WILL BE BACK ONLINE AFTER HER MEETING.

Sendng you positive healing thoughts and prayers.


Louise

Matilda wrote:

Petra...give her the calcium mid day or 6-8 hours after the baytril and then spartrix in the evening.

Thank you - I will do this!

The does of baytril you are giving her is on the high end.
2.5% =25mg per 1 ml or cc. For her weight, I would give half the amount you are giving, 1 time a day.

I just read the post from Louise. I am glad that the dosage was correct!

My question is this...are you givng it straight without mixing it with water? You can.

I don't actually mix it with water but I suck up a tiny amount of honey diluted with water in the same small syringe to cut down the bitterness a bit and then administer it directly.

Thank you so much Charis for your quick replies. This helps a lot!

Petra..............I received a phone call from Charis asking me to advise you that your original dosage of the Baytril was correct. I posted that in my earlier thread, but wanted to state it again just in case you over looked it.


Louise

Jackie's Mom wrote:

Petra..........I am so sorry you are going through this will little Pina.

Both my little hens display the same type of poop prior to laying their eggs. I have heard of this from many people with hens so that could be considered normal. I only had a problem with blood with my Jackie, and that was only with her first laying. It never occured again.

You are giving her the calcium and the D3vitamin and hopefully that will take care of any deficiency in that regard.

As far as the vomiting is concerned I have found that giving some baby applesauce along with a few cc's of yogurt does help with the digestive issues. I also wait atleast one hour after feeding before administrating any medications. Baytril/Cipro tend to be very harsh on the digestive system.

I agree with Charis that there is a possible coccidia issue in play here. I would suggest you treat her for that as well.

I would keep her warm and confined for a little while to give her system a chance to settle down.

PETRA.........WHILE TYPING THIS I JUST RECEIVED A PHONE CALL FROM CHARIS.......SHE TOLD ME TO PASS ON TO YOU THAT SHE HAD A BRAIN FART!!!! YOUR ORIGINAL DOSAGE OF THE BAYTRIL WAS CORRECT. SO GO BACK TO YOUR ORIGINAL DOSAGE. SHE WILL BE BACK ONLINE AFTER HER MEETING.

Sendng you positive healing thoughts and prayers.


Louise

Louise - thank you so much for your info and your good wishes. I really hope that little Pina is getting well soon again. I really cannot stand her seeing like this.

Jackie's Mom wrote:

Petra..............I received a phone call from Charis asking me to advise you that your original dosage of the Baytril was correct. I posted that in my earlier thread, but wanted to state it again just in case you over looked it.


Louise

First I did and then I noticed. Thank you so much again for your care!!!!!

priya wrote:

Oh Petra my heart goes out to you and little Pina :( What you have described certainly seems a lot for a sweet little pidgie to undergo :( she has already had enough troubles in the past. But i am glad she came to you for help and really relieved you could assist her in laying the second egg. Poor baby

Sending positive thoughts and healing prayers for little Pina I am sure she will bounce right back, as she always has, with all the love and care that she gets

Thank you so much, Priya, for your thoughts!

Last night Pina vomited all of her supper again and she had cold feet in the morning. But on the other hand she seemed much more vivid than yesterday and then this happened: in a moment of inattention because I was so tired she escaped through the screen in the balcony door, which I had left open a bit too long.

Thank heaven she came back around 2 pm, having left me nearly with a heart attack. Now she seem to feel really better. We will see what happens tonight with her poop.

In order to do something against her vomiting I tried to find the Pepto Bismol you all recommended but this is not available in Germany, also not the agent under a different name. In the pharmacy they told me that this agent is obsolete in Germany for a long time.

Now my idea is that there must be some homeopathic remedy for this. There is a remedy I am using when I feel nauseous - called Gastricumeel from the HEEL company. The ingredients are:

Argentum nitricum
Acidum Arsenicosum
Pulsatilla Pratensis
Nux Vomica
Carbo vegetabilis
Stibium sulfuratum nigrum

Does anyone have any experience with this? This would help a lot.
Thank you!!!

Petra..........The vomiting is a definate sign of a digestive issue.

I would try handfeeding some baby applesauce to neutralize the PH balance in the crop and then hand feed some yogurt as the probiotics will help the digestive track.

I'm so glad she returned home after escaping. If possible, I would keep her confined until the vomiting issue is resolved.

Have you noticed any more blood in the poop?


Louise

Jackie's Mom wrote:

Petra..........The vomiting is a definate sign of a digestive issue.

I would try handfeeding some baby applesauce to neutralize the PH balance in the crop and then hand feed some yogurt as the probiotics will help the digestive track.

I'm so glad she returned home after escaping. If possible, I would keep her confined until the vomiting issue is resolved.

Have you noticed any more blood in the poop?


Louise

Louise, after she had returned I gave her exactly that - baby cereal with applesauce and a pro-biotic yoghurt. This she did not vomit yet - 4 hours later.

Thank heaven - today I have not found any blood in her poop.
And I will definitely pay more attention tomorrow

Petra, was this Pina's first time laying eggs? If so, I had the same problem with Jackie of blood with her first eggs. Glad there was no more blood present in her poops.

That she has held down the cereal for 4 hours is a good sign. I would keep her on the cereal/applesauce/yogurt mixture for an entire day. Give her system a chance to recover before introducing seed right away.

Charis might advise you on some meds to give her. She is the expert in that, so let's see what she thinks.

Keep us posted.

Louise

No, Pina already laid a couple of eggs without any problems at all. But there was quite a pause since she did the last time - since Willy has disappeared midth of May she did not lay any more.

Also I am in close contact with Charis!!!

Pina is still vomiting during the night. Please could anyone look into what I wrote yesterday:

In order to do something against her vomiting I tried to find the Pepto Bismol you all recommended but this is not available in Germany, also not the agent under a different name. In the pharmacy they told me that this agent is obsolete in Germany for a long time.

Now my idea is that there must be some homeopathic remedy for this. There is a remedy I am using when I feel nauseous - called Gastricumeel from the HEEL company. The ingredients are:

Argentum nitricum
Acidum Arsenicosum
Pulsatilla Pratensis
Nux Vomica
Carbo vegetabilis
Stibium sulfuratum nigrum

I cannot get hold of Cynthia unfortunately. I also don't get Pepto Bismo here in Germany.
Is there any other remedy to stop that vomiting?

Thank you!

I am so sorry little Pina is feeling under the weather, Petra.
Bless you both for what you are going through.

I've thought about Pina a lot since yesterday...I can't get her off my mind, especially after a call from one of our members in Texas, that has had serious illness with his pigeons for well over a year. Finally, when the most recent one passed on, he took his body and had a lab conduct a necropsy so he could save the rest of his birds. The result came back yesterday that the bird died from E-coli that was resistant to the antibiotic he had been giving.

Jim recently had a similar situation with 2 of his birds that failed to improve with the antibiotic treatment he was using. One had strep and the other staph and each needed different antibiotics for a cure.

Back to my worry for our sweet, precious Pina....this does make me worry that the baytril is not sufficient to kill what ever bacteria may be making her so sick. Now that she is on baytril though, nothing would show up in a culture should you have one done. She would need to be off the baytril for a least one week. I am not recommending yu take her off the baytril but if she gets sick again after improving this time, I do think you should have a culture taken rather than put her on antibiotics.

My other worry is that she becomes dehydrated from vomiting and may need sub-Q fluids.
Does the vomiting occur after she receives her medications? How much does she vomit?

Thank you so much for your concern,Charis. Funnily Pina vomits only during the night and I think maybe the reason was that she ate seeds in the late afternoon before I had given her her babycereal with applesauce.

I don't think she will become dehydrated because I feed her about 20 ml applesauce in the morning, after 1 hour she gets her medicine with another bit of applesauce. Although she vomited a little bit after the medication - not much came out so I suppose she kept most of the baytril inside I watched her for an hour and then let her out because she was so desperate to wanting to fly. At 2 pm - she must have a watch inside - she came in again, drinking a good deal from the ACV water and I then fed her babycereal with applsauce and a good portion of pro-biotic joghurt. After that she did not vomit at all.

Tonight she will get another portion of the formula with joghurt and I will leave the Spartrix out. She's had 2 pills - maybe this is the extra that is too much for her and makes her vomit in the night. We will see what happens.

Her whole behaviour tells me that she is feeling quite well and when I watch her outside she flies like a little devil. A pigeon that is really sick does not do this. Her mouth is clear, she does not produce any bad smells, not even her poop does smell - nothing.

I think it would be worse for her if I prison her up again - i know it would be very bad for her emotional state. It's only a pity that I did not receive any answer yet regarding the homeopathic remedies - I have the feeling that this could really help her.

The problem with homeopathic medicine is that some remedies that are good and healing for humans, are toxic to birds. Homeopathics for animals in general, is a new field and especially so with birds. Avian mediceine in general is primitive in comparrison to that of companion animals such as dog and cats. That being said, I am very hesitant about telling you go go ahead with a homeopathic remedy for her.
I agree with you that emotional health is important and critical for physcial healing and wellness.
As far as the vomiting goes, it could be that it is just the medicine that is making her feel ill.
I am absolutely delighted she is improving.

I glad Pina seems to be doing better.