Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight)

Last edited by Jaye on Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

I am at my wit's end with this fella. Ivette found him with his feet all wound up in hair. We removed the hair, and I had him on Cipro and Medacam for 5 days. Then followed with Metronidazole and Ornicycline for 5 days....and lotsa food.

His infection/feet healed, he became uppity, and he is much more alert. Mouth was always healthy looking from the start.

Then I just kept feeding him tons, figuring he'd put on weight in the following days - but his weight was still low.

I went with Panacur for one day, skipped day, then second dose.

Them Baycox one day. Then, at Matilda's suggestion...a second dose 10 days later.

Then, in between the first and second Baycox dosages, a third wormer single-dose Moxidectin+Prazaquantel, about 5 days ago.

Still is not gaining weight. Poops continue to have a lotta clear 'water', green 'worms' looking feces, and very little white.

He has been eating safflower seed, bread, peanuts, peas. Am trying to post an image so hopefully it'll show up shortly. When I lay off of the seed and go with just the bread and peanuts, the poops firm up a bit but still nowhere near normal.

What to do next ? He is stronger than he was but certainly not back to normal.

It has been just shy of 3 weeks since we found him....

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) P1010010

Hi Jaye,

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) 333746

I'm not at all familiar with all the meds but if I recall correctly, Charis has mentioned giving a pij applesauce. I'm assuming this would be unsweetened applesauce.
This may help to settle the digestive system and hopefully begin to produce some normal droppings.
Sorry I can't be of more help but did want to at least address your post.

I'm sure she, Plamenh or someone with more experience will be on soon to assist you.

I sent your post to Deb and this is her responce. I will send her the picture of the poop too.

I'd worry a little about all the meds, particularly the antibiotics. The bird probably has little normal bacteria. They might try just supportive care for a few more days and give the gut a rest.
I agree a look at the poop may be helpful.

Keep me posted...

I would start him on formula mixed with honey. 20 ml twice a day. Start with 5~10 ml first feeding and incerase. It looks to me like PMV poop but some youngsters have that same poop without PMV symptoms.
Calcium and vitamins in the water can help or if he is not drinking, some multivitamin pills.
You can leave seeds so he can eat some more if he feels like.

I could be wrong, Plamen but I don't think this bird is a youngster. The bird is eating very well on his own and does not need Jaye to feed him.

plamenh wrote:: I would start him on formula mixed with honey. 20 ml twice a day. Start with 5~10 ml first feeding and incerase.

It looks to me like PMV poop but some youngsters have that same poop without PMV symptoms.

Calcium and vitamins in the water can help or if he is not drinking, some multivitamin pills.
You can leave seeds so he can eat some more if he feels like.

Unless I'm missing something, the 'poop' photo Jaye posted doesn't resemble the photos you posted describing PMV 'poops'. Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) Confused

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) Confused

Jaye's photo

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) Droppi10

Your photos ("For inexperienced person, neurological signs and poos are the most certain way to guess that this may be PMV.")

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) Droppi11

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) Droppi14

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) Droppi15

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) Droppi16

Here is the link from which I obtained the photos:
https://pij-n-angels.forumotion.net/pigeon-and-dove-illness-and-injury-discussion-forum-f21/pigeon-illnesses-with-symptoms-similar-to-pmv-t903-15.htm

I cannot be definite here just with one picture of poop, but
these are my reasons why mentioning PMV:
The color is different, but it is still wormlike, thin, and broken and a lot of fluid. With PMV they don't become like the ones on my pictures overnight, or if the bird had PMV in the past, they will look like the one on the picture from time to time not always.

This is all fluid? Or I'm mistaken?

I would get him on formula and honey for following reasons:
Formula contains most of the ingredients young birds need for growth and because he was for long time on medicines and antibiotics, he needs good nutrition, vitamins and minerals. Quickest is with formula. Honey will give him extra strength and push his weight up.
Mix is easy to digest and if he has any GI issues it will calm his digestive tract. Usually formula contains probiotic or can be mixed with it for improved digestion.

On the other side, peanuts and safflower seeds are not the best food for sick birds as they are oily and bit hard on digestion. (They may be also reason for this type of poop).

Extra vitamins and calcium are just to help quicker replenish ones missing after medicating and boost his immune system.

If he is eating enough, and you don't want to stress him with syringe feeding, put him on probiotics, vitamins and minerals and switch to normal seeds mix with extra wheet and barley for couple of days and see if this will make a difference in weight and poop.
You can allways use formula if this doesn't work.

In both cases I would not use any medications as he had enough so far. Smile

Subject: Article on droppings by Colin Walker Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:05 pm

By Dr Colin Walker BSc, BVSc, MRCVS, MACVSc (Avian health)

One good way of monitoring the birds’ health is by observing their droppings. As most fanciers clean their racing loft each day, simply observing the droppings during the cleaning process is a good way of monitoring the birds’ health over the previous 24 hours. Many problems that affect race performance are subclinical. This means that race form is affected before the birds actually start to look sick to the fancier. As changes in the dropping usually occur 1 - 2 days before an unwell bird starts to look sick to us, observing and effectively managing the abnormal changes in droppings does much to head off a downward turn in form.

Essentially, the bowel is a hollow tube into which several organs, in particular the liver, empty via ducts. The bowel terminates in the cloaca (a bag just inside the bird’s external opening). Ducts leading from the kidney also terminate here and deposit the bird’s urinary waste. Birds, interestingly, produce two sorts of urine, a liquid urine, which looks like clear water, and also a solid urine made up of a white paste of uric acid crystals. Therefore, in the cloaca accumulate the undigested remnants of food from the bowel, liquid and solid urine from the kidney and a number of normal discharges, notably bile from the liver and also mucus from the bowel wall. Once in the cloaca, some fluid is resorbed until, in health, a firm dropping, normally of a brownish colour, is produced. When the cloaca is uncomfortably full, the bird relaxes the cloacal opening and passes a dropping.

Green droppings
The main factor affecting the colour of a pigeon’s dropping is what it has eaten. Pigeons digest many of the pigments found in their food rather poorly and so these pass relatively unaltered through the system and colour the dropping. In this way, birds eating, for example, a lot of pink minerals, can be expected to have brownish droppings. Also birds eating greenish grain (eg dun peas) or supplemented with green vegetables (such as silver beet) or free-ranging and pecking at grass will have more green droppings. Green can, however, alert the fancier to the possibility of a problem. This is because green droppings can occur with bowel disease. The green colour comes from bile, which in birds is a brilliant fluorescent green. Bile is a digestive enzyme produced by the liver. After a number of metabolic steps, it passes from the liver down a duct (called the bile duct) into the bowel where it aids the digestive process. After digestion in the bowel, components of the bile are reabsorbed through the bowel wall for reuse. If the bowel is diseased, this process cannot occur normally, with the result that more green bile stays in the bowel and is passed in the dropping, resulting in a green dropping. Green droppings, therefore, can alert the fancier to the possibility of bowel disease. Usually, microscopic examination of a faecal smear will show the cause. There is always some bile left, which when mixed with the rest of the dropping, gives it a greenish hue. Although in the early stages of bowel disease birds can produce a firm dropping that is green, as a general rule such droppings are associated with the ingestion of non-digestible green pigments. It is always safest, however, to have a vet or technician microscopically examine a few green droppings to check that everything is okay. Because inflamed bowels not only absorb bile but also water poorly, green droppings that are also watery do, however, almost invariably point to a problem. The only notable exception here would be the droppings of recently returned race birds. Because these birds have not eaten during the race, their droppings are made up of urine, bile and bowel mucus and appear as a clear fluid ring with a small central amount of green mucousy material and white paste (the solid urine). In healthy birds, once in the loft and having eaten, their droppings should start to become normal within a few hours and unless the race was particularly taxing, should be completely normal by the next morning.

Watery droppings
Watery droppings occur commonly in only one of two situations, either where there is bowel disease interfering with absorption of fluid or alternatively where the urine component of the dropping is visible. A watery dropping associated with bowel disease occurs because any inflammatory condition of the bowel interferes with its function and compromises its ability to absorb fluid. The result is a watery dropping. Possibilities include infectious problems such as worms, coccidia, ‘thrush’ or a bacterial infection, while the most likely non-infectious causes are ingestion of either irritant or toxic substances either while free-lofting or associated with a change of diet. Usually an infectious cause can be detected quickly by microscopic examination of a faecal smear.

A watery dropping due to visible urine may or may not be a problem. As discussed above, the bowel and urinary waste accumulate in the cloaca . Here urine is absorbed by the bowel component of the dropping and some fluid is resorbed back into the body until a moist, well-formed dropping is ready to be passed. If the bird is disturbed, the cloaca will be evacuated prematurely before this process is completed. The result is a healthy dropping from a healthy bird that, because it is watery, can concern the fancier. The most common time that this is observed is after the morning exercise. Here the birds have not been fed so there is virtually no digested food in the dropping. Provided the birds are not dehydrated, urine production is constant. The birds often empty their cloaca on landing. The result is a small amount of green-brown material (mainly bile and bowel mucus), surrounded by a ring of clear water. And so a watery dropping in the morning prior to feeding, and particularly after exercise, is usually quite normal. A better time to assess the dropping is after feeding and a period of rest. As digested food starts to appear in the cloaca several hours after feeding, this acts like a sponge, mopping up the urine and cloacal emptying by the birds only occurs when the cloaca is full.

If droppings with urine rings persist through the day, it is probable that the birds are producing excessive urine. This occurs if the birds are drinking excessively. In a race team, this is almost invariably due to one of only two problems, namely wet canker or airsac inflammation. The wet canker organisms produce a toxin, which amongst other things makes the birds thirsty, resulting in an increased water intake, while inflamed airsacs lose their moisture-conserving ability, resulting in excess fluid loss in the expired air. To prevent dehydration, the birds need to counteract this and often overcompensate and drink to excess. A fancier can determine if wet canker is involved by organising for his local bird vet or technician to do a crop flush. If this is not possible, the condition may on occasion be diagnosed by response to treatment, eg giving a 2-day course of Turbosole (ronidazole) and monitoring the response. If there is inflammation in the deeper respiratory structures like the airsacs, there is usually also inflammation in the upper respiratory structures, such as the trachea and sinuses. This almost invariably leads to an increased level of sneezing in the loft. If there is no sneezing in a race loft, it is unlikely that a respiratory infection is active. If uncertain, a sample of mucus from the back of the throat can be examined microscopically (often done at the same time as a crop flush) which will, if a respiratory infection is present, reveal signs of inflammation and secondary infection. If infection is confirmed, usually a 3 - 5-day course of Doxy-T (doxycycline / Tylan) is given. Because approximately 80% of birds with respiratory infection during the race season also have a concurrent wet canker, often the Doxy-T and Turbosole are blended together. One teaspoon (3 g) per 2 litre of each is given in the drinking water. This blend turns the water a pale yellow colour and the birds drink it readily. By simultaneously treating any wet canker present, the response to antibiotics is always much better.

A more full explanation of changes observed in droppings can be found in my book The Flying Vet’s Pigeon Health & Management.
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Plamenh...you are correct, you outlined the clear liquid part of his droppings. here's another pic on a different background. I started him on Ultraflora probiotic yesterday.

His weight is still down despite frequent and plentiful meals. Poops are the same.

Charis is correct...he's not a youngster. He's an adult, certainly.

I will do as suggested, Plamenh, and keep y'all posted....I do kinda have a hunch that this isn't a nutritional sort of thing, however.

He has had tons of food for a good 2 weeks +....and seriously has shown little, if any, weight gain at all...

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) P1010011

I hope it works and he starts putting on weight. Please keep us posted.

This last picture looks very different from the first picture you posted, Jaye.

How much does the bird weigh?

Watery droppings
Watery droppings occur commonly in only one of two situations, either where there is bowel disease interfering with absorption of fluid or alternatively where the urine component of the dropping is visible. A watery dropping associated with bowel disease occurs because any inflammatory condition of the bowel interferes with its function and compromises its ability to absorb fluid. The result is a watery dropping. Possibilities include infectious problems such as worms, coccidia, ‘thrush’ or a bacterial infection, while the most likely non-infectious causes are ingestion of either irritant or toxic substances either while free-lofting or associated with a change of diet. Usually an infectious cause can be detected quickly by microscopic examination of a faecal smear.

I remember that Birdbarn had some poop going on in his loft that made him uneasy because he didn't like the way it looked. he treated the birds for everything...canker, worms coccidia, salmonella and still the didn't improve. Finally he took a collective sample to the vet and the poop was clean. His vet told him that he thought all the good bacteria had been destroyed with all the medications and that they needed to be built back up again.
While I don't know what's wrong with this bird, I think building the bird back up with probiotics and supportive care may make a difference over a bit more time. If you have any nystatin, that wouldn't hurt either. The dose is 0.3ML every 12 hours for 5 days. If you don't have nystatin, it is a good medication to have on hand.
During the time it takes to build the bird back up, if he does have PMV, that may become more obvious.
I did send this last picture off to Dr Deb Sheaffer too. When she responds, I will post it. here.

Thank you for your explanation on the droppings, Plamenh. I appreciate it. Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) 570843

Matilda wrote:: This last picture looks very different from the first picture you posted, Jaye.

How much does the bird weigh?

WOW!! There really is a difference.

Matilda wrote:: I did send this last picture off to Dr Deb Sheaffer too. When she responds, I will post it. here.

That was a great idea, Charis.
Will keep an eye out for a report.

I think that first picture was morning poop and therefore more material. Later ones are day poop and they are more frequent with less garnish, more like the ones I posted. That is what did get you confused.

Actually, in person they really aren't all that different (photo A from photo B)...if anything....the 2nd pic is more indicative of what most of them look like. That's why I posted the second pic - to clarify how much clear liquid there is in each dropping (a significant amt.).
Since probiotics began, there does appear to be a tad more white in the poop...but still there's a lotta clear liquid; and the green parts are still looking like short, thin 'worms'. BTW...the clear stuff is kinda goopy....

By goopy do you mean thick?

mmmmyyyyeah...as in...it's not a watery consistency.... Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) 106767

it's more the consistency of, say....liquid soap or dishwashing liquid.....sorta viscous, not quite as thick as soaps, though.....

Thanks...I'll do some research.

Subject: Responce from Dr. Frank Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:19 pm

Although it is difficult to diagnose the cause of a problem, it's virtually impossible to do so long distance. However, one should at least try. A very good resource on the net can be found here: http://www.chevita.com/en/pigeons/symptoms/index.php
Perhaps the symptom can be read as "Diarrhoea, rice water-like" for which this site would diagnose Hexamitiasis.
Without your statement "He has been wormed." most on this board would think about a worm infestation because he keeps eating a lot but is skinny in spite of that. However, having been wormed does not mean that he is free of worms. Perhaps the worms are resistant to the antibiotic (piperazine, for example, is almost useless today) that was used or it was not used at an efficient concentration for the proper length of time. This should not be misinterpreted as criticism. Each of us have failed in the past.
I would suggest to collect all droppings of a day and get a brine float to check for worm eggs. Then select the most efficient antibiotic for the worms present.

I have had no other responces from emails I have sent out. How is the bird doing, Jaye?

Honestly....he seems to be doing quite fine. Mary busted him yesterday foraging through the Parrot food basket across the room from where he usually hangs out. All this time I though he was very sessile...apparently...he just takes little trips when nobody is around !

The probiotics etc. has improved his poop...it now has white back in it and it is a little bit better "formed"....but still a lotta clear liquid and still he isn't gaining any significant weight. I just DON'T get it

Poor guy...I really wanna get him back to his flock...he's been here 3+ weeks now...but I can't release him until this is resolved.

At this point I dunno...I think I just have to take him into the avian vet...too much guesswork here probably isn't helping the pigeon. He either hasn't shaken the worms (I really cannot imagine he still has worms...he had Panacur AND the double-wormer from Elizabeth)..or he's got coccidiosis or maybe hexamatiasis...or something else.....

Time for a fecal test.....

Oh how this thread is helping me learn Immensely! :study: As I am having the very exact same thing going on.. I will continue to follow this... I am better off today than yesterday as Zoe's poops has turned somewhat solid overnight with actual white in her poops now.

Jaye wrote:: Honestly....he seems to be doing quite fine. Mary busted him yesterday foraging through the Parrot food basket across the room from where he usually hangs out. All this time I though he was very sessile...apparently...he just takes little trips when nobody is around !

The probiotics etc. has improved his poop...it now has white back in it and it is a little bit better "formed"....but still a lotta clear liquid and still he isn't gaining any significant weight.

Poor guy...I really wanna get him back to his flock...he's been here 3+ weeks now...but I can't release him until this is resolved.

At this point I dunno...I think I just have to take him into the avian vet...too much guesswork here probably isn't helping the pigeon. He either hasn't shaken the worms (I really cannot imagine he still has worms...he had Panacur AND the double-wormer from Elizabeth)..or he's got coccidiosis or maybe hexamatiasis...or something else.....

Time for a fecal test.....

That's the problem...It's anyone's guess unless diagnostics are done. I know it's maddening. I'm with ya Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) 18465

Poopy pigeon has me baffled (not gaining weight) 18465

Well...no less maddening, now.

We had the fecal done. No sign of worms...no sign of coccidiosis. Clean feces; it wasn't shedding anything, at least in this test. . I have NO idea

So, that means something else internal...digestive system or renal system. So the choice was whether to go for the $170 blood panel including liver analysis....or try Clavamox.

Opted for the latter...doc said if it doesn't result in changes in the next 10 days the next step would be the blood tests.

I mean, in a sense, good news in that some things are narrowed down, at least...but it is still just taking educated guesses with meds at this point.....

Just wanted to post the latest.....He continues to become bolder exploring the flat.

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