Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!

Irene...I hate to break it to you...but... feral/fantail cross does not equal sterile. What do you mean mutation?
If the eggs aren't hatching, babies dying it's more likely because the parents are carriers of salmonella or E-coli....unless there is something I don't know.

I'm happy to help you figure out doses. I think you should put them all ...except the new mom and dad,. on baytril.

I don't think they're cross-breeds either, as fantails are called doves but they are a type of pigeon. The doves that belong to a different species are the collared dove and similar birds. I'll try and find a reference on pigeon/dove crossbreeds in a minute to show you.

Meanwhile, thank you for posting the pictures of Comis -- he's adorable! I'm so glad he's better!

I love the picture taken in the bathroom. It's really cute and their differences are quite striking.

Here's the link about pigeon/dove hybrids:
http://www.pigeonangels.com/pigeon-and-dove-chit-chat-f12/male-dove-x-female-pigeon-hybrid-t1671.htm

AZ Whitefeather, I'm glad you find Meli and Anemoni beautiful! :-) Charis, are you sure that my pigeons are NOT sterile??!! The vet told me that they would be so, but perhaps she made a mistake... However, their eggs are always very small and light in comparison to the eggs of Anemoni which are fertilized, and the parents always abandon them, even if I leave the eggs in their nests for a few days...! They are kissing and mating every day, but why are they not interested in their eggs..? I have always broken and thrown away their eggs thinking that they are 'empty' and in fact, one of them was empty indeed (it contained only air!) as I told you in my previous messages... I'm really sorry if my pigeons are not really sterile but ill and their eggs are not really 'empty' but dead... I have actually put one of their eggs in the nest of Anemoni, next to her own egg, so if the egg is 'alive' it should hatch 2-3 days after Anemoni's own egg (which hatched today)... Let's see what happens... I'm really curious now...! Aaah... I wish you were wrong but I actually trust you more than the vet because you are a true expert on pigeons! But if you are right, I'm really sorry that I have killed so many innocent babies by destroying so many eggs...! :-( However, if I let all these eggs hatch, my room will be so full of pigeons that there will be no more space for me and the landlady will kick me out!! I wish I had a garden...!!

I just read some of your new comments that I hadn't see... Thank you all for your nice and useful comments and your interest!

Irene...the eggs are not sterile unless both birds are hens. The vet was mistaken. I had an avian vet here tell a woman that a pigeon and dove could not hatch a baby. That vet was mistaken too.
It's not healthy for your birds to lay over and over again with out having the time to go through the incubation process. Laying eggs, takes a lot out of a hen and her body need the incubation time to rest a bit. She also needs calcium and vitaminD to process the calcium.

It's very difficult for some to take the eggs and replace them with wooden ones but as difficult as it is, still it's better than being over run with pigeons. The best way to do it is replace them right after the second egg is laid. The the eggs don't even begin to develop.

Irene, I still hate taking their eggs. They try so hard to hatch them, and take such good care of them. It bothers me every time I do, but it is something we need to do, or we would be over run with too many birds. Then I wouldn't be able to take proper care of the ones that I have. So I just think about that. It helps a lot. If you do as Charis says, and take them away as soon as they lay the second one, then you aren't killing any body. They haven't begun to grow yet. Just think of it as doing the right thing for the birds that you do have. But they must be replaced with the fake eggs, so that they will sit on them for the required time, (about 18 days). So she doesn't lay right away.

Love the pictures. Your fan is beautiful.

Dear friends,

indeed it is very difficult taking their eggs which are so precious to them and which could become lovely little babies... but as you said, we need to be 'hard' for their own benefit, because if their number gets out of control they get diseases more easily and they also fight more often because each of them wants more space and there is not enough for all... Thank you for the links that you sent me about cross breeds, they were really interesting! Colar dove and feral pigeon seem a very strange combination indeed! I'm learning new things from you every day! :-)

Well, here are the weight measurements of my pigeons that need to be treated with Metronidazole so that Charis can calculate the right dose for them... and since you like my babies, I'm sending you also their photos :-)



Orfeas and Kirki ('witch'): 338 gr and 343 gr



Arapis ('Arab') and Stachtoboota ('Cinderella'): 333 gr and 340 gr

Is there a plce where you can find wooden replacement eggs, which will encourage them to contine the incubation process?

Your birds are all in the same weight range and so this will be easy.

I would give 10mg of baytril, in the morning, after they ea and conmtinue for 10 days.
In the evening, I would gove 40mg of metronidazole for 5 days.

Thank you very much Charis! I'll do as you suggested me! As for the fake eggs, unfortunately I can't find them anywhere here in Venice, the pet shops don't even have seeds for pigeons and I have to buy them from the supermarket...! There are only touristic shops for souvenirs...

However, I really think that there is something wrong with my pigeons' eggs... Do you remember the egg that I had put in Anemoni's nest, next to the one that hatched yesterday? It should hatch in 2-3 days after the other, but today when I checked it against the light, I saw that it was empty! There was no embryo in it, although Anemoni had been warming it for 2 weeks together with her own... I broke the egg and it was empty indeed! There was only the yolk and the white part and nothing more! It was supposed to be a fertilized egg, because its parents (Orfeas and Kirki) had mated... and they are still mating... But every time they lay eggs, they abandon them, probably because they understand that they are empty... Arapis and Cinderella also abandon their eggs... Are you sure that they are not sterile...? If the eggs were fertilized but dead, wouldn't I find a dead embryo in the egg that I broke today...?

As for Comis, he is getting better and better! Today he picked up some little pieces of wholemeal bread from my hand and he ate them by himself! Of course I still need to forcefeed him because he doesn't have much appetite, but at least he has started showing some interest in food, which is good! He has also put on some weight! He is now 238gr (a few days ago he was 225gr). He is more lively and he is walking again, but he is lame and he avoids to step on his right leg which he often holds up... Could it be that his right leg hurts? His droppings are smaller than before but they contain a lot of water, what does that mean? Is it an effect of the antibiotics or could it be that Comis has another illness hiding behind Selmonella and Canker...? Let's hope we don't have any unpleasant surprises now that he has started to get better...!

Irene...it takes 18 days for the eggs to develop and the birds would need to iincubate them. Do the bird have a nest to lay their eggs in? It's very unhealthy to lay over and over again without the resting time of the incubation. If the birds are harboring illness and they get well, the eggs may very well hatch.

Here's a place in the UK where you can order eggs.

http://pigeons.taylorschoice.co.uk/categories/pigeon_nesting_products.php

If you google pigeon supplies in Italy, you may be able to find Italian pigeon supply, on line. If you do, I would love to have the information for our resources.

The worry I have about Comis is that he may develop a yeast infection because of the antibiotics. If you can find nystatin, oral suspension, that would be helpful.
Have you felt his legs, when they connect to his body, for swelling...or looked at the foot that may be bothering him.

Charis, the egg that I broke yesterday had been incubated for 18 days by Anemoni (the grandmother of the egg) but still there was nothing in it... It was completely empty, there was not even a tiny foetus, just the liquid yolk and white part of the egg... It's very strange... The birds have their nests, each couple has its own box with straw. They like to stay in their nests and they attack any other pigeon coming close to their houses... However, although they lay their eggs in their nests, they abbandon them! One of the two 'cross breed' couples, Orfeas and Kirki, the last time they had eggs, they incubated them for 2 days but then all of a sudden they abbandoned them and started mating again... A very strange behaviour indeed! The other couple, Arapis and Stachtoboota, abbandoned their eggs as soon as they laid them and they started mating again, just like Orfeas and Kirki... Both couples are very young! Orfeas and Kirki are almost 6 months old and Arapis and Stachtoboota are only 4 months old! Could it be that they have not reached their fertile age yet? Orfeas and Kirki have had eggs twice by now, Arapis and Stachtoboota only once... Orfeas and Kirki laid their last eggs 2 days before Anemoni and Meli laid theirs, so when they abandoned their eggs, I put one of them in the nest of Anemoni who incubated it together with hers. That was the egg that I broke yesterday, which was empty...

Thank you for the useful link with pigeon supplies that you gave me! I'll order some fake eggs, I'll surely need them, all the more if my pigeons are not really sterile...! The pharmacy here doesn't have Nystatin but I'll order it! I hope they have it by Monday and let's hope it won't be too late...!

As for Comis, I checked his legs today and I noticed that his left egg is actually a little swollen in the upper part (where his leg is attached to his body) and in the lower joint (where the leg is united with his foot). Not very much, but it definetely looks thicker than the other leg... Poor Comis is still lame... He inclines towards his left side and he seems to have pain when he lies down on hard surfaces (eg. on the table) because as soon as he lies down he gets up again as if he can't find comfort...) But when he lies down on the straw or his blanket, he seems ok! Is the swelling on his leg a symptom of Selmonella...? His droppings are still surrounded by a lot of water... Today I also noticed that he was dirty all around his anus with bright green faeces. I filled the sink with warm water and gave him a bath to clean him because if his faeces contain bacteria it's not good for him to have them on him... Then I wrapped him in kitchen paper to dry him and then I wrapped him in his blanket to keep him warm... He is still sleeping in his blanket and seems very relaxed... Here he is:

Love the pictures, Irene.
Comis is too adorable snuggled in his blanket.

I'm sorry he continues to have a few issues.
I hope you are able to get to the bottom of this real soon.

Bless you both.

Irene...I don't have a definite answer about why the eggs are infertile but I know with all certainty that it isn't because one is a feral and the other a fantail. Crossing breeds is exactly how we got some of the pigeons breeds we do have and why feral pigeons can have featherd feet, a flip at the back of the head or other fancy breed features..
My suspicion still remains that it has to do with illness or they are both the same gender. Time will sort it out.

Swollen joints is one of the symptoms of salmonella. Do the joints feel hot to the touch or are they red?
The watery poop may be a result of the peas you are feeing him as they have som much liquid in them. You are feeding peas that have been frozen fresh and then defrosted...right? Not canned.

Dear Cindy, thank you for your nice comment and your wishes for me and Comis! Let's hope he recovers completely! Today he was very quiet... He stayed in his blanket all day long. I took him out only to feed him and give him his medicine but he wanted to return to his blanket as soon as possible! I think he likes blankets, they probably remind him of his mother Anemoni that covered him when he was little, but now his mum doesn't care for him anymore because she has another baby... Poor Comis is left alone but fortunately he has me to look after him...

Charis, when I checked his leg this afternoon his thigh was a bit reddish. As for the temperature, I don't understand if it is hot or normal... I'll check him again more carefully in the morning... (now he is sleeping and I don't want to disturb him...) As for his watery poops, I hope it is because of the defrosted peas I feed him, as you said, and that he doesn't have any more illenesses... I soak the peas in hot water to defrost them and they absorb a lot of water, it's true... Today I gave Comis a few pieces of sweet corn from a can, is it bad if I give him canned food? I checked the ingredients and it said that it contained only sweet corn with salt... I washed them very well and then I gave a few pieces to Comis, together with his peas. Is there anything else I could give him to eat which could help him become stronger? Sometimes he tries to pick up seeds from his plate but then he spits them out... The only thing he can eat by himself is wholemeal bread but only a few tiny pieces and then he loses his appetite... Poor Comis, he is still very ill and although he is much better than he was some days ago, it seems that it will take him a long time to recover... I only hope that he doesn't have any other things like viral infections or fungus or worms...

As for my 'cross-breeds', I believe you if you say that they are not sterile because you know much better than me... I was completely ignorant about pigeons but one day I found by chance a little feral pigeon (Meli) in the street that had fallen from its nest and I decided to rescue him... I didn't know what to do, but my love for him guided me... I wrapped him with an old blanket and I made a nest for him in my cupboard. I handfed him wet bread and he opened his mouth for me, thinking that I was his mum! When he grew up, I let him free but he came back to me after four days and he never wanted to leave my house again... He had become too tamed and domesticated and I was very attached to him, so I kept him at home as a pet... Then I bought him the fantail dove for company and they had all those babies... I started learning about pigeons from the internet and from my own experiences with them, but I still know very little... I'm so glad that now I can have your advice and expert opinions! I can't thank you enough for them!!

If my 'cross breed' couples are actually of the same gender, how can they flirt and mate? Can pigeons be gay...? :-) Maybe they are infertile because of illness, even though they seem fine and healthy... But who knows what is hiding in them...! Are you sure that I should give them Baytril and Metronidazole although they don't have any symptoms...? What if the antibiotics have side effects on them...? I'm a little worried, but if you think it is necessary, I'll follow your advice because I trust you a lot!

Ok Charis, you convinced me! I'll treat them all with antibiotics (except for the new parents) as you suggested and let's hope that they work! During the day all the birds are together in their huge cage in my bedroom and at night I put them in smaller cages in the bathroom which is darker and quieter so that they can rest better. The last weeks, Meli, Anemoni, Comis and Laithi were all together in one cage and Orfeas, Kirki, Arapis and Stachtoboota in another. But when Anemoni laid new eggs I put Comis and Laithi in a box because Anemoni didn't want them anymore... However, during the daytime all the birds (except for Anemoni who stayed in her nest) were in the same cage in my bedroom. Comis and Laithi stayed always on the floor of the cage because they were little and they couldn't fly, but sometimes the other birds came down from the shelves and ate and drank from their plates... They still seem healthy and eat a lot but as you said, they may be pretending... But Meli and Anemoni have lost their appetite and although they have a new baby to feed, they eat very little! I suspect that they carry the disease and it was probably through them that Comis and Laithi caught it... The new baby seems well though...! But maybe in a few days it will show signs of illness too... let's see...

When I took Comis to the vet, she checked in his mouth and she didn't find anything. She also took a sample of his saliva and she examined it under the microscope but she didn't find anything either! But I'll try to check him again myself in the morning... As for Nystatin, today I went to a pharmacy far away but they did not have it either. I asked the man who worked there if there was any place where I could find this medicine and he just answered me in one word 'no'! He just wanted to get rid of me as soon as possible! :-( Tomorrow morning I'll go to another pharmacy that is further away, let's hope I can find this medicine somewhere... I forgot to tell you that 2 months ago I rescued a little kitten that was in the rubbish, which had fungus of the skin... Could it be that the fungus passed from the kitten to my birds although they did not have direct contact...? How could I know if Comis has a yeast infection? What are the symptoms? If I can't find Nystatin, could I give Comis the same medicine (for fungus) that I gave to the kitten (that is Itrafungol) or would it be toxic for him...?

Irene...I don't think the kitten gave the pigeons a fungal infection. What medication do you have?

Here's a link to an article on Avian Web about yeast infection.

http://www.avianweb.com/candida.html

Dear Charis, thank you for the useful link about fungus infections. Comis doesn't have any clear symptoms apart from the fact that he is very quiet... Well, this morning he came out of his blanket and made a few steps around, he also exercised his wings but then he stayed motionless looking at me as if he wanted to tell me 'that was it for today! Don't expect anything more from me!'... I fed him peas and fresh carrots that I boiled until they became soft and then I cut them in tiny pieces. I couldn't check his mouth because he resisted too much... His legs seem better though...! He was standing straight! He was extremely affectionate this morning...! As I was holding him on my lap, he moved closer to me, put his head between my fingers and started kissing my hand all over! I was caressing his head and he closed his eyes and bent his head so that I could stroke him better... He was so sweet...! I gave him his Metronidazole dose and put him back in his blanket... I'm wondering if I should give him antibiotics for many days... It has been a week since I started giving him medicines but he is still ill and he doesn't eat by himself... (at least he drinks water)! Shall I continue giving him the antibiotics? For how many days more? I need your advice again. Now I'm about to go to a pharmacy far away to see if I can find Nystatin, although I'm not very optimistic... I read in the link that you gave me that apple vinegar could also be good for yeast infections, should I try that if I don't find Nystatin...?

Irene...the kissing your hands makes me think that Comis is a little girl.

Tell me...do you have Comis on a heating pad? Being wrapped in a blanket, when ill is a human comfort and not the kind the kind of action that would be enjoyed a pigeon. A pigeon that is recovering needs to be kept warm but have the opportunity to move around, see what's going on around her and pick at food.
The medicines often suppress appetite., especially the baytril.

The usual dosage time for metronidazole is 5 days.
Baytril needs to be given for 10 full days.

Nystatin is something that you may need a doctor's prescription. Do you know a doctor that would give you one? The dose I use is 0.3 cc [ml], 2 times a day.

You can try a 1 cc [ml] per cup of water but anti yeast would work better.

Just a thought. Pecking your hands could also be asking for food.

NiteOwl wrote:

Just a thought. Pecking your hands could also be asking for food.

And a good thought at that!!

My hand reared youngsters will do this when they are hungry, as they know that the hands feed them. And out in my loft, the birds will do this when I am giving out treats. The females do tend to come to you and try to bribe you for treats with little kisses on your cheek or neck. When I had birds doing this last year, and I wasn't sure of the gender, Charis told me that they were probably female, as they are the ones that bestow kisses all over your face, in order to bribe you for a treat. She turned out to be right. Turned out those couple of birds were hens. Should have known. The males will usually be lots more demanding about it. LOL.

You made me smile with your nice comments...! :-) So is my Comis a little girl...?! In fact, you may be right, because as 'NiteOwl' said, males are usually more demanding and less affectionate... I remember Comis' father Meli when he was little he liked to attack my hands and bite me to show me that he was 'more powerful' than me...! Well, he was also affectionate when he was in a good mood, but he preferred being cuddled than kissing me himself... Comis started kissing me after I had fed her so I don't think she was hungry anymore... She probably feels lonely and misses her little sister Laithi who died. They used to kiss each other all the time and they were so united... Poor Laithi, even when she was bleeding and dying she wanted to be close to Comis... I had put her far from her (because I was afraid that she would trasmit her illness to Comis through her shed blood, which actually happened...), but she was trying desperately to creep and go closer to Comis... In the end I put them back together to satisfy Laithi's last wish and Laithi died on the side of Comis, so peacefully that she seemed to have just fallen asleep... Poor little baby, I still feel like crying when I'm talking of her... I'm so glad that Comis is still alive and recovering...!

This evening she made me a pleasant surprise!! I came home after work and I found her out of her blanket walking on the floor and eating (by herself!!) the seeds that the other pigeons had scattered around!! She was eating with appetitite!!! I couldn't believe my eyes!! I also fed her some peas and carrots, I gave her her Baytril dose and I put her back in her blanket to sleep. She seems to like this blanket a lot and she tries to get in it by herself! She considers it her nest! Unfortunately the heating pad that I had in my house was broken and I had to throw it away and unfortunately I don't have another... That's why I put Comis in the blanket next to the radiator... If she wants to go out she just pushes the blanket away and she is free. However, I'll buy her a proper heating pad, as you adviced me.

As for the medicines, shall I stop giving her Metronidazole? She has been taking it for a week now. Shall I give her only the Baytril dose from now on? As for Nystatin, I'll try for a last time to find it tomorrow. There is a pharmacy where I can order medicines and they usually bring them the next morning. Unfortunately it was closed at the weekend but it will be open tomorrow, so there is still hope...! :-)