No rest for the wicked

Sure do appreciate the update, Teresa.
Sorry Sammy is still having some problems.
I am glad though at least you have more a diagnosis than you did have.

Bless both of you s.
Please do keep us posted on how things go.

Teresa, I really hope that Sammy will recover too. With your love and care he is a lucky bird. Sending all my positive thoughts to you

Thanks, Petra!

I've noticed something that gives me a lot of hope: when he came back from the vets, Sammy was twisting his neck more than ever before, and that points to PMV. I'm also sure that he crashed into something, but he can see just fine (OMG, he's flapping his wings right now! ) and his reactions are perfectly normal. Now if he flew into something because he had mild PMV, he may recover yet when he's put on more weight and become stronger.
Of course, he's welcome to stay indefinitely, but I'll keep trying to help him to get as well as he can be!

Teresa wrote:

Thanks, Petra!

I've noticed something that gives me a lot of hope: when he came back from the vets, Sammy was twisting his neck more than ever before, and that points to PMV. I'm also sure that he crashed into something, but he can see just fine (OMG, he's flapping his wings right now! ) and his reactions are perfectly normal.

Now if he flew into something because he had mild PMV, he may recover yet when he's put on more weight and become stronger.
Of course, he's welcome to stay indefinitely, but I'll keep trying to help him to get as well as he can be!

That's news Teresa.

Fancyfeathers wrote:

She is a little beauty.
Given the coloring of her toe, she might lose it. But I'm sure she will do fine.
Stay safe sweet Bella

Bless the gentleman who picked her up. A true he is.
On behalf of Pij-n-Angels, please do thank him.

Well, he was here today with his girlfriend, so I showed him this thread. He loved it!

His girlfriend, Lídia, came to see Lawrence (she was the one who rescued him and brought him to me) and he, Paulo, wanted to see Sammy (whom he had last seen motionless in the park just before I picked him up) and Hercules (also seen on the day he was rescued; in fact, Lídia and Paulo had helped me fill the last water container for the pigeons, as I was struggling with the dog lead, the rucksack with the water bottles, and a fidgety Hercules!)

Apart from catching Bella for me, Paulo had also managed to catch Paul, another string injury, named after his rescuer. So he enjoyed seeing their photos, especially the post-treatment ones and those taken when they were released.
God bless this young couple for their kindness and generosity to animals!

What a lovely update, Teresa.
Lidia and Paulo have my two thumbs up and three cheers for their help in assisting our pigeons in need and helping you as well.

You three definitely know the meaning of teamwork.

Definitely PMV!

Yesterday evening, when I went to pick Sammy up for his supplemental feed, I found him stargazing. No matter how many times you've seen the pictures and the videos, it's still a shock to see such a frail little bird contorting his neck like that.
Not knowing what else to do, I picked him up, wrapped him up warm and held him, spoke to him softly and stroked his head until the contortions subsided. Then I gave him his baby cereal, a little dollop half the size of a pea at a time, placed inside the tip of his beak, and he munched away contentedly. It takes ages though, as you can imagine, and I have to keep getting bowls of hot water from the kitchen to stand the cereal bowl in, so it stays at the right temperature.
He still doesn't show any of the other symptoms. There's no excessive water intake, and there are distinct urates in the poops. That's what made diagnosis more difficult, but at least I'm glad his kidneys are functioning.
He's perkier this morning, wing-twitching when I approach, eating seed and preening. The nest half of the cage is shaded, but he's not hiding there.

Besides the daily drop of vitamins (with calcium and B complex) and twice-a-week ACV in the water, I've also been giving him weak chamomile tea 3 times a week instead of plain water. This sounds like the right thing, but I would like your opinion on it. I also mean to source the natural remedies mentioned in Cynthia's post on PMV. I am, however, going to phone the vet to ask whether I should stop giving him the Metacam. And I will need a whole new design for his seed bowl, so that it's deeper, but also allows him to stand in it without overturning. (He won't pick seed unless he's standing on it!)

Meanwhile I've been worry-gutting about Hercules, wondering how the two pigeons were kept and handled at the vets last Saturday, whether he'll get it too. He certainly came back more subdued than he left, but I thought he was just sore from being handled.
Piper will be fine, as, apart from the obvious hygiene, I don't even wear the same clothes when I'm handling her.

Hi Teresa,
I would follow much the same procedure with Pij as you do with Sammy, in that when he would begin to seizure and stargaze I would pick him up, hold him close to my chest and stroke his back. I could nearly immediately feel him begin to relax.

I will be thinking, and sending, positive thoughts for Sammy and hope that Hercules has not been affected by any of this.

Please do keep us posted.

That is such a shame, Teresa. Thank goodness for you.
I think giving him the tea three times a week is fine. You may want to start with that and when you change the water in the afternoon or evening replace the tea water with fresh water and then the tea water in the morning again.

Matilda wrote:

That is such a shame, Teresa. Thank goodness for you.
I think giving him the tea three times a week is fine.

You may want to start with that and when you change the water in the afternoon or evening replace the tea water with fresh water and then the tea water in the morning again.

That's a great suggestion.
Alternating the two will give Sammy the plain water he does need as well as the tea.

Chamomile with honey is good for him and schedule as one Charis suggested will be more than adequate. You may try Belladona homeopathic pills too (1 a day) if he has seizures. Vitamins and calcium are something that helps a lot.
PMV is much more dangerous when bird is deprived of food and water, with you by his side it is a question of time (4~6 weeks) and he will recover. Keep in mind that PMV is extremely contagious and other birds can get infected from your clothes, shoes, hair anything in contact with Sammy. Development of the disease is 2~4 weeks so it is extremely difficult to keep it under control. I would stimulate immunity of all birds you have.

Many thanks for all your suggestions, I really appreciate them.

I've just put him back in his cage, on his warm bed. He's been on my lap all evening, as everytime I stop paying attention to him the stargazing starts again.
Is it common for birds to have seizures only at night? They started about 10pm, just like last night. I hope he'll be better by morning again, but I hate leaving him for a few hours.

It's very puzzling, supposedly birds with PMV have more seizures when they are stimulated/startled, and Sammy is doing the opposite: so long as there's something to draw his attention, he straightens up his head and stares, then when all goes quiet he starts stargazing.
Neither do I understand why this symptom has appeared so late, after he's been here about a month. Can the symptoms come and go during the disease period?

PMV affects their optical nerve. They cannot see well, cannot estimate distances and keep balance. Because of positioning of their eyes, pigeons have two-dimensional perception of the surrounding. If you watch them, you’ll see that their head is in constant movement and that is the way to compensate transition from 2 to 3 dimensions.
Human eye sees world around turned upside down. Our brain is the one who converts picture the way we see it.
With PMV I would guess that this link gets disrupted and this is the reason why affected birds walk backwards, in the circles, stargaze, turn their necks, etc.
It is very interesting, but even badly affected birds after recovery manage to compensate for their disabilities. One of my birds could not handle seeds after recovery. I hand feed him for months. Despite this I was always leaving him seeds in his cage. One day I watched him trying and trying and seeds would keep on dropping from the beak. Then he started madly flapping his wings for couple of minutes. Got himself exhausted, calmed down and started eating seeds without dropping them anymore. Since that time, he repeats this procedure twice daily and eats alone.



This is him in the time when I was hand feeding him daily. I still do from time to time just because he begs me too, but his weight is back to normal. He is also cuddling type and likes to be handled.

plamenh wrote:

PMV affects their optical nerve. They cannot see well, cannot estimate distances and keep balance. Because of positioning of their eyes, pigeons have two-dimensional perception of the surrounding. If you watch them, you’ll see that their head is in constant movement and that is the way to compensate transition from 2 to 3 dimensions.
Human eye sees world around turned upside down. Our brain is the one who converts picture the way we see it.
With PMV I would guess that this link gets disrupted and this is the reason why affected birds walk backwards, in the circles, stargaze, turn their necks, etc.
It is very interesting, but even badly affected birds after recovery manage to compensate for their disabilities. One of my birds could not handle seeds after recovery. I hand feed him for months. Despite this I was always leaving him seeds in his cage. One day I watched him trying and trying and seeds would keep on dropping from the beak. Then he started madly flapping his wings for couple of minutes. Got himself exhausted, calmed down and started eating seeds without dropping them anymore. Since that time, he repeats this procedure twice daily and eats alone.



This is him in the time when I was hand feeding him daily. I stil do from time to time yous because he begs me too, but his weight is back to normal. He is also cuddling type and likes to be handled.

Thank you for this information plamenh We have yet to get any pigeons in you suffer from PMV but I try to be prepared just in case we do.

Thank you so much, Plamenh!
The way you described your bird picking up seeds and dropping them, that was pretty much what Sammy was doing yesterday. This morning, the small amount of poops confirmed what I suspected, that even with supplemented feeding, he wasn't getting enough to eat.
So, after repeatedly studying yours and Cynthia's instructions, I decided to start tube-feeding him. I was a great deal more scared than he was, but it went really well. He's been very contented today, and only stargazed for less tham 10 minutes mid-afternoon today. He hasn't done it since. So I suppose this answers my question about the intensification of the symptoms: it happened when he started to weaken after spending half a day with not enough food. But it will never happen again now!

Sammy tonight -- doesn't need to eat out of the seed bowl, so may as well lie in it!


Sammy says: 'Cynthia and Plamenh, I would like to say a big thank you for the detailed instructions that allowed my idiot of a human to feed me properly -- at long bloody last!'

Should PMV survivors be kept permanently separated from other pigeons? Or do they cease to pose a risk after the 4-6 weeks of incubation of the disease?

Teresa wrote:

So, after repeatedly studying yours and Cynthia's instructions, I decided to start tube-feeding him. I was a great deal more scared than he was, but it went really well.

Sammy says: 'Cynthia and Plamenh, I would like to say a big thank you for the detailed instructions that allowed my idiot of a human to feed me properly -- at long bloody last!'

I too experienced that with a Collared Dove I have. Cynthia had recommended I speak to Owlmama about it's symptoms and she said I should tube feed.
I was so nervous and as I hadn't got a proper tube, had to improvise with some electrical wire.
I knew exactly how it should be done from reading about it before but still sat through Cynthia's video a few times before I summoned up enough nerve to actually do it.

As you found, it went really well and I was amazed at how quickly it could be fed so the stress to the bird was far less than me attempting to feed it bit by bit in it's beak.
That made such a difference to it's recovery.

So another big thank you from me for all the brilliant info.

I love the picture Teresa, amazing how comfortable they can make a bowl look.

Good luck.

Janet

jamy wrote:

I too experienced that with a Collared Dove I have. Cynthia had recommended I speak to Owlmama about it's symptoms and she said I should tube feed.
I was so nervous and as I hadn't got a proper tube, had to improvise with some electrical wire.
I knew exactly how it should be done from reading about it before but still sat through Cynthia's video a few times before I summoned up enough nerve to actually do it.

As you found, it went really well and I was amazed at how quickly it could be fed so the stress to the bird was far less than me attempting to feed it bit by bit in it's beak.
That made such a difference to it's recovery.

Same here! It's really nerve-racking to attempt what looks like such an intrusive feeding method, but if the poor bird can't get enough food by other means, then we have no choice.

Teresa wrote:

I suppose this answers my question about the intensification of the symptoms: it happened when he started to weaken after spending half a day with not enough food.

Not as simple as that, after all, because today he's spent most of the morning stargazing and he's getting enough to eat. I'm sure that inadequate food intake is a major factor, but I'm finding out it's not the only one.

Teresa - I am so sorry to hear that Sammy has PMV. What is it that is currently happening? It's November and I hate this month because of the many deaths and other bad luck I have experienced around this time. My father died in November, my beloved cat, lost my job, my partner lost his, several things with my Mom - the list is endless.

No I hope you can break the rule and sweet Sammy is recovering fully again. All my love I send right away in your direction. Get well again Sammy, get well!

Thank you so much, Cynthia!
I'm delighted to know that when Sammy recovers and the virus is no longer present on the feathers he will be able to socialise safely with others, so he and Piper will have each other's company and won't be lonely. I see, from the cases you mentioned, that recovery may not be gradual and the time varies a lot, so I suppose there's nothing to it but to provide support, be watchful, and let the recovery take its course.
It's a scary thing to witness, though, and you get all the insecurities of a first-time mother, petrified of doing the wrong thing. Thank you so much for your advice and support.

pigeonwriter wrote:

Teresa - I am so sorry to hear that Sammy has PMV. What is it that is currently happening? It's November and I hate this month because of the many deaths and other bad luck I have experienced around this time. My father died in November, my beloved cat, lost my job, my partner lost his, several things with my Mom - the list is endless.

No I hope you can break the rule and sweet Sammy is recovering fully again. All my love I send right away in your direction. Get well again Sammy, get well!

Petra,
I am sorry this month is so bad for you, I think winter is depressing and it makes it so much worse when you have something so bad happen. I hope it's better for you this year.

Today was sunny and I made sure I stayed out in it for as long as possible even though it was cold, just to get as many rays as I could. It makes you feel so much brighter.
i
Teresa, I've only had one PMV to date she has recovered all her abilities thankfully, but I do remember she did appear to get a lot worse for a while, but keep up the supportive care and feeding. I wish I'd been able to tube feed when I had Dannie, it was quite hard on her when she at her worst trying to get enough food in her to keep her strong. All I did was seed pop for her.
She also developed very runny smelly poops for a while, but she is so well now and she's paired up with another hen, and lives life to the full, regularly lays eggs and can fly well, so has a good life.

I wish you well with Sammy's care.

Janet

Thank you so much, Janet!

Sammy had a rough day on Saturday, but as I wasn't working I was able to look after him all day.
Lunchtime tube feeding wasn't going well because he kept seizing , so on Cynthia's advice I started popping thawed peas and corn into his beak instead. That has worked very well, and although he's still been stargazing from time to time, he looks very alert and contented during and after feeding, and that's a joy to see.
I've got new pictures, but I'll post them tomorrow, as I can't keep my eyes open!

I'm sorry that Sammy had a bit of an off day, Teresa.
I'm happy that the alternative feeding went well.

Will continue to think, and send, positive thoughts to you both.