Our Willy is sick - I don't know what to do?

Petra...my thought is if you can get the canker under control, then it will be clear if there are other issues with Willy.

Charis, John, I will call the vet tomorrow anyway and see what she says and try to get her to give me a prescription either for chevi-col or metronidazole fluid.

I will let you know about the outcome either way. Another option would possibly be that I call the bird clinic and ask them whether I could get a subscription from them if my vet is un-cooperative. Oh my - how I hate these kinds of discussions. So stupid. I have headaches from all that.

Maybe you should cut to the chase and contact the bird clinic first.
There must be others in Munich that have Pigeons and also have canker treatments or acces to them. Maybe you can ask that question on the wild bird forum?

Petra, just a thought, but is Chevi-Col not available generally in Germany? We can get that here from a pigeon supply store, and it is made in Germany

http://www.chevita.com/de/produkte/index-tauben.php

(OK, maybe not -seems to want one to log in for info)

Well at least you can call them tomorrow and ask where you can buy the product locally or if you do indeed need a script to purchase it.

Chevita is German company based in Bavaria

chevita GmbH
D-85266 Pfaffenhofen
Germany
Phone: +49-(0)8441/853-0
Fax: +49-(0)8441/853-51
E-Mail: chevita@chevita.de

They should be able to help you with info on Chavi-col.

There is no problem mixing Spartrix with other drugs, problem is dosage. On the cold weather water consumption is reduced, on the other side some birds with very watery droppings may drink extensively.

It is prescribed for 3 days, but I would go for 5 as it is not clear if all birds are drinking enough.

Hello pigeonwriter,

I lived in Cologne until 17 October, now live in Antwerp.

I find that many of the Chevita products (especially those containing antibiotics) are available only by prescription through Tierärzte/veterinarians.

The preventive regimens sold by Chevita for pigeon fanciers and racers are available without prescription, I presume, but I handled the occasional rescues, rather than flocks.

I bought Spartrix from a local pet food supplier in Cologne, Kölner Futter Service.

Posts from a 2006 thread at Pigeon - Talk:


Pigeon-Talk (http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/index.php)
-   Sick or Injured Pigeon Discussions (http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Possibly sick pigeon (http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=19174)


pigeonperson
6th February 2007 09:57 PM

Spartrix is an antibiotic. One pill won't completely cure the disease. It has to be maintained in the blood level for a number of days in order to kill most of the trichomonads. It's the same thing with what we usually think an antibiotic is. Nobody would expect to take one pill and be cured. What you read is wrong or is the direction for a prophylactic dose. Give it for 5 days straight. If the bird is having difficulty in swallowing the pill, cut it in half and give it in two halves.

Someone at Animal General Hospital called me some time back and asked how I dose with Spartrix. I said I give 4 pills, one pill for each of the next 4 days. To verify what I had said, they put a call into the Raptor Trust and were told that the dose given is 5 pills. If the Raptor Trust gives 5 pills, I went to the same amount and have been doing that since.

If you have a probiotic, I suggest giving it to the bird at the same time. It helps reduce the possibility of a yeast buildup because like any other antibiotic, Spartrix will upset the natural gut bacteria.


Flying_Pidgy
6th February 2007 10:17 PM

so i give it 1 pill everyday for 5 days?


pigeonperson
6th February 2007 10:59 PM

Yes, one pill a day for 5 days straight. Please don't try to remove the lesions. Let them fall apart on their own. Under them is raw tissue ready to bleed. It takes at least one month from the time you medicate, for the body to reject the canker and heal the mucous membranes that have been destroyed by the little monsters.


Larry_Cologne
7th February 2007 07:03 AM

Dosing Spartix
 
Hello Pidgey, Pigeonperson and all, 

I must have the same source of Spartrix as Flying Pidgey.

I was able to locate some meds at a local German pet feed store, and bought a box of 

Brieftauben-Spartrix 
in English: Active ingredient Carnidazol. 
1 Tablet contains 10 mg Q-Methyl-N-12--(2-methyl-5-nitro-1imidazollyl)ethyl]-thiocarbamat (Carnidazol) 
Mnfr: Janssen-Cilag GmbH, address 41457 Neuss 
distributed by (or distributor for?) (Mitvertrieb) Dr. Hesse 
Tierpharma GmbH + Co KG, address 25551 Hohenlockstedt 

Dosing-guidance, Type and Duration of the Application:

Brietauben-Spartrix kommt in einer einzigen Dosis pro Brieftauben zur Anwendung. Letter-Pigeon-Spartrix comes in an only (single, solitary) dose per Letter-pigeon for application. Adult pigeon 1 tablet, young pigeon 1/2 tablet. The tablet is to be put as deep as possible in the beak. (Cost 9.80 Euros or about $12 for 25 tablets).



Nothing about treating with more than one tablet. 

Expiration date March 2010 (therefore instructions should be current or up-to-date).(Instruction sheet copyright J-C 1998, package copyright J-C 1999).

Is the 10 mg tablet enough for a solitary treatment, or just for a prophylactic treatment? 

I think I'll go with the 1 tablet-per day for 5 days route.

Larry


Larry_Cologne
7th February 2007 07:27 AM

Spartrix dose
 
Update to my last post: 

After some convoluted internet searching, I found what their dosing instructions are for:

During the "travel time" (racing season) each pigeon should be given a weekly single dose of one Tablet Spartrix, after each flight, to prevent a failure or break in performance. 

Spartrix-Tabletten wirken gegen die Trichomoniasis. Während der Reisezeit sollte wöchentlich nach jedem Flug pro Taube 1 Tablette Spartrix als Einzelbehandlung gegeben werden, um einem Leistungseinbruch vorzubeugen. Den Jungtauben verabreicht man beim Absetzen je Taube 1 Tablette.
Packung: Blisterpackung mit 25 Tabletten 

http://www.roehnfried-hesse.de/lexik...=46&buchstabe=

So, this is a prophylactic dose for racing or homing pigeons. 

Larry



Larry,
That's really interesting -- so the single-tablet dosage was only ever meant as prevention and not as treatment!
That explains the ongoing battle between most vets (who prescribe only one pill) and the pigeon experts (who know one is not enough). Is the onus on the manufacturer to clarify the dosages?

Petra,
I hope Willy will get better soon! Hopefully the fact that you managed to identify the canker so promptly will ensure that the group can be treated before they are seriously affected.
Canker seems to be a recurrent problem with this pigeon family. It makes you wonder how they are getting re-infected -- perhaps they are occasionally drinking contaminated water on the other building or in the street, or else they are socialising with pigeons that don't come to your balcony, and therefore weren't treated for canker.

Teresa...I think that's exactly why vets prescribe a one time dose.

The common mistake with Trichomonas is that people think, they should be completely exterminated. This is not recommended, neither desireable. Every pigeon carries Trichomonas and they build immunity. Normally these protozoa live in the crop, feed on bacteria and do not mess with pigeon health. Possible that they even help to some extent keeping bad bacteria under control. Problem rises when bird’s health is compromised. Starvation, weather changes, stress, exhaustion these are some of the reasons. Then what we call secondary infections starts to build up. Bacteria growth induces protozoa number to grow. Every living organism, Trichomonas included, excretes toxins out of the body, cells etc. Actually toxins and large number of Trichomonas (canker growth) are what is dangerous for the host.
Feral birds can live normal healthy life with thousands of Trichomonas in their bodies. My personal thoughts are that PH balance in their bodies adjusts and keeps them under control besides bacteria/protozoa balance. Laboratory birds that are completely free of Trichomonas are very vulnerable as 20~30 protozoa infection may cause fatalities.

I agree with you palmenh,. If the bird is under stress for any reason such as weather change, breeding, feeding young, etc... such can cause the canker to explode in numbers abd so when we treat we are knocking the numbers to a managable level for the bird.

with both of of you, plamenh and Charis.

After a very bad day and an awful night here is an update on Willy:

Yesterday I failed to catch Willy entirely. I tried it twice when he was sitting on his roosting place. He was simply too fast and escaped. The only thing I could do was watching him on the opposite building where he sat all alone and apparently wanted to have his peace. He did not change egg sitting with Winnie so my chance was lost to get him there. It is the time where the eggs would have been overdue to hatch but Winnie is still sitting on them but both know that there will be no babies (plaster eggs) - so no real need to take care.
Willy ate a few seeds yesterday and he drank a bit but then he was gone again. I felt terrible. So I hoped I could catch him in the night. I had already prepared some tubefeeding stuff and pill and vitamins etc. I also had prepared a big cardbox with a nice warm layer of soft towels to put him in. I waited until it was completely dark and Willy slept on his roosting place. Well - I missed him again and off he was, flew to the opposite building again and did not come back at all that night. Later on I could not detect him any more so I did not know where he was. I wondered where he took that energy from.

I felt so guilty. Not only that I put him under additional stress although my instinct told me to leave him alone simply - I also deprived him of his home and safe sleeping place. I wondered whether he would come home at all.

This morning he appeared on the balcony and seemed to feel a bit better. His movements were a bit more vivid when he ate some seeds. Most of the day he was sitting on the opposite building again. Quite obviously he wanted to be left alone again. But I watched him preening himself with more liveliness. Yesterday he hardly could bow backwards probably because of the pain in his crop. Today this worked much better. He also ate more seeds today, especially dried corn and sunflower hearts. After drinking he was still making the penguin stance - so this was the sign for me that his crop is probably still hurting.

Tonight he is back sleeping in pigeon city and I will do anything not to disturb him so that he can heal himself in peace.

What is the conclusion for this? I should have listened to my gutfeeling and to Willy himself. Willy is a strong bird and he wanted to heal himself. He showed me quite well what he wanted and I did not understand. I am sure now that if he would have needed me to do something he somehow would have shown me. I have to learn to exactly read the signals.

It is not good when we humans always think that we have the solutions for everything. While these birds are getting sick from time to time most of them also know quite well what to do. We humans tend to overreact in so many times instead of listening into our own inner depths. Once we may have know but our instincts got lost. Therefore we need the pharmacies, the doctors and all that stuff that sometimes does more bad than good.

I hope so very much that Willy is getting healthy again. I love him so much and I could not forgive myself if I have done him harm through my actions because I was so anxious to help him. If the bird needs me I am here. As for any other that needs my help.

I thank you all for your concerns and trying to help me and Willy. I am glad that I can come and ask you all for advice - in the end the birds tell us what we should do - don't they?

I forgot to add that today - in the early afternoon - Pina flew over to her Dad and was sitting near to him for a while. Isn't that sweet? I am sure that there is a communication between them and that the birds know quite well what is happening.

Petra...that's what sick birds do... avoid being caught, isolate and often die. They pretend to be well, pretend to be strong until they can't pretend any longer and until often it's too late and then they can be easily caught. Teresa knows as she picks up sick birds, in the park, only to have them die a few minutes later.
Canker numbers are not going to decrease on their own as they are out of control. Hope for Willy is with the medicated water.

Petra............Charis is 100% correct. Birds try to hide their illness and act like they are normal until they are so sick and critical that then they become grounded and can be caught.

I rescued a grounded bird from my feral flock last week that was suffering from a severe case of canker. I treated him immediately with Flagyl and continued the treatment for 3 days. Kept him warm and even hand feed him. Unfortunately, the treatment was to late for this bird and he passed away. He was bearly eating and drinking and also was in the pengiun stance.

Please try and capture Willy..........if he is seriously ill with canker, his only hope is in getting the proper meds into him ASAP.

Regards,
Louise

You gave him Spartrix and that acts fast. This is your miracle that made Willy better.
I would repeat procedure with another pill these comming days though. Just too be on the safe side.

I agree that the pill you gave him has helped.

plamenh wrote:

You gave him Spartrix and that acts fast. This is your miracle that made Willy better.
I would repeat procedure with another pill these comming days though. Just too be on the safe side.

I will do that of course when I can catch him on the nest. But I won't stress him any furher.

Given the choice, both Piper and Hercules would be out that window like a shot, if I let them. They wouldn't last a day.

Sadly canker does not heal itself.

With regard to medicating Willie, in order for the Spartrix to work to it's potential, it really does need to be given consecutively, whether it's for 3,4,5, etc., days.

I am hoping for the best for dear Willie.

Please do keep us posted, Petra.