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 Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks

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AZWhitefeather
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Jun 08, 2010 7:46 pm

Innolytics' response to Kim doesn't agree with what I've read, that immunity to coccidiosis is maintained by a continued, low-level exposure to the organism. It isn't acquired once and for life. And we all know that prolongued low-dosage treatments with antibiotics will only make the patient more vulnerable to more resistant bacteria, so odds are for coccidia the same may apply.
I'll have to do some more research on this, but in the short time it looks as though they were being nice but not necessarily correct.
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Jun 08, 2010 9:28 pm

I had a brief look at Pigeon People's home page, and saw their preferred methods for keeping pigeons off buildings:

Quote :
The most effective methods are also the kindest and cheapest - mesh, wire coils, plastic spikes, and sloping, slick surfaces.

The kindest? Shock
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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Jun 08, 2010 10:07 pm

I would have to reserve my judgment on this topic until I learn more about the effects or lack of them on the pigeons immune system from the nicarbazin. If indeed it has no effect on the immune system, then I think it's a lot better than killing birds. But if in fact, it does knock down the immune system, and therefore cause them to die from cocci, then it is nothing more than yet another way to cull. A way that many people will not object to as they do the poisons and other means of killing, as they naively believe that all that is being done is birth control. When the birds die of Coccidiosis, they will then believe it to be death by natural causes, which of course it wouldn't be. So if indeed it does do this, then I think that they have finally found the perfect method of culling, from the perspective of those who want to eradicate pigeons.
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 09, 2010 9:50 pm

NiteOwl wrote:
I would have to reserve my judgment on this topic until I learn more about the effects or lack of them on the pigeons immune system from the nicarbazin. If indeed it has no effect on the immune system, then I think it's a lot better than killing birds. But if in fact, it does knock down the immune system, and therefore cause them to die from cocci, then it is nothing more than yet another way to cull. A way that many people will not object to as they do the poisons and other means of killing, as they naively believe that all that is being done is birth control. When the birds die of Coccidiosis, they will then believe it to be death by natural causes, which of course it wouldn't be. So if indeed it does do this, then I think that they have finally found the perfect method of culling, from the perspective of those who want to eradicate pigeons.

That is my concern also, and we really need more information. So I've restarted my research, and started taking notes and saving pictures for a future lenghty post.
But meanwhile, a few things are worthy of note:
Innolytics don't know that much about pigeons -- they say they have a life-span of 2 to 4 years, call them disease carriers, and say there are no toxic effects, which is not true according to the EPA. They don't know that by feeding once a day, early in the morning, they are only medicating the cock birds Shock , and they use, as their logo, a picture of a miserable-looking pigeon with a droopy wing... Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 279675

Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 INN102-cc
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 09, 2010 9:58 pm

Teresa wrote:
NiteOwl wrote:
I would have to reserve my judgment on this topic until I learn more about the effects or lack of them on the pigeons immune system from the nicarbazin. If indeed it has no effect on the immune system, then I think it's a lot better than killing birds. But if in fact, it does knock down the immune system, and therefore cause them to die from cocci, then it is nothing more than yet another way to cull. A way that many people will not object to as they do the poisons and other means of killing, as they naively believe that all that is being done is birth control. When the birds die of Coccidiosis, they will then believe it to be death by natural causes, which of course it wouldn't be. So if indeed it does do this, then I think that they have finally found the perfect method of culling, from the perspective of those who want to eradicate pigeons.

That is my concern also, and we really need more information.
So I've restarted my research, and started taking notes and saving pictures for a future lenghty post.
But meanwhile, a few things are worthy of note:
Innolytics don't know that much about pigeons -- they say they have a life-span of 2 to 4 years, call them disease carriers, and say there are no toxic effects, which is not true according to the EPA. They don't know that by feeding once a day, early in the morning, they are only medicating the cock birds Shock , and they use, as their logo, a picture of a miserable-looking pigeon with a droopy wing... Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 279675

Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 INN102-cc

Will be looking forward to your findings. Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 142829

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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NiteOwl
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2010 2:59 pm

Thanks. I'll be looking for your updates on this also.
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erickwolf



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PostSubject: OvoControl and Immunity   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 11, 2010 12:59 pm

Several of the posts in this forum have theorized that OvoControl (nicarbazin) has some sort of an effect on the immune system of pigeons or their developing chicks. In other words, the use of nicarbazin in pigeons would prevent or interfere with the development of coccidial immunity resulting in increased coccidosis. To be clear, there is absolutely nothing in the published literature that could eventually support this theory in pigeons or any other bird. Nicarbazin does not effect the immune system, positively or negatively.

For additional technical details, see the product website and technical white papers..
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 11, 2010 1:40 pm

Erick...could you please address the statements on this FB page?


https://ja-jp.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=27667080066&topic=5367
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erickwolf



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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 11, 2010 3:08 pm

Matilda wrote:
Erick...could you please address the statements on this FB page?


https://ja-jp.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=27667080066&topic=5367

The Picas opinion is a diatribe rather than serious scientific assessment. None of the comments are supported by the science or a technical publication. What is written in the Facebook post represents purely speculative opinions.

Beginning with the theory that nicarbazin could have a deleterious effect on the immune system of pigeons or other birds is completely unfounded. Other comments include a statement that OvoControl could cause ocular damage. No kidding – the pellets are larger than BB’s and would obviously hurt if you stick them in your eye.

It is our policy not to comment on diatribes. Their post simply cannot be taken seriously.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 11, 2010 4:49 pm

Erick...I appreciate you taking the time to join this site and your willingness to respond to our questions.
My very first pigeon experience was as a 4 year old child, finding one that had been poisioned. As much as I prayed to God, the pigeon died in front of me. I was crushed...heartbroken and deeply affected by that experience...an experience that has profoundly set the course of my life as an advocate for pigeons.
As an advocate, I am confronted, on nearly a daily basis, by the conflict between humans and pigeons ... the pigeons never come out on the winning side with all the concoctions humans have come up with to destroy them.
With all my heart I want to believe that this birth control is a solution to this ever growing conflict . Humans are resistant to change and suspisious of new ways of doing things. There is a huge gap to bridge between the pigeon people, that deal with the cruelity and heartache of lethal pigeon control, and the humans that only think of other creatures in terms of being disposable.
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erickwolf



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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 11, 2010 6:28 pm

We also appreciate the opportunity to provide feedback and information on OvoControl and contraceptive technology. The company started the project roughly 12 years ago. While birth control for people has been available for more than 50 years, the practice is essentially unheard of in non-captive animals. We originally viewed it as an opportunity to fill a market need -- more like common sense than anything else. In zoos, animals that breed too often are contracepted -- why not pigeons? Little did we know.

If we would have known the obstacles and resistance we would face, I would have never have volunteered to take the journey. Everything from large government agencies ostensibly responsible for the protection of wildlife to small businesses that derive a livelihood from poisoning pigeons (and many others in between) have opposed the new technology because it upsets the status-quo. I could write a book.

We fully appreciate that given conflict between man and pigeons, the pigeons typically lose. In this case, however, contraceptive technology provides a safe and effective method to keep both sides satisfied without having to kill birds in the process.

I hope we can count on the pigeon advocacy groups to support this humane management alternative.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 11, 2010 6:42 pm

erickwolf wrote:
We also appreciate the opportunity to provide feedback and information on OvoControl and contraceptive technology. The company started the project roughly 12 years ago. While birth control for people has been available for more than 50 years, the practice is essentially unheard of in non-captive animals. We originally viewed it as an opportunity to fill a market need -- more like common sense than anything else. In zoos, animals that breed too often are contracepted -- why not pigeons? Little did we know.

If we would have known the obstacles and resistance we would face, I would have never have volunteered to take the journey. Everything from large government agencies ostensibly responsible for the protection of wildlife to small businesses that derive a livelihood from poisoning pigeons (and many others in between) have opposed the new technology because it upsets the status-quo. I could write a book.

We fully appreciate that given conflict between man and pigeons, the pigeons typically lose. In this case, however, contraceptive technology provides a safe and effective method to keep both sides satisfied without having to kill birds in the process.

I hope we can count on the pigeon advocacy groups to support this humane management alternative.

I 'd like to hear more about that. If you wrote a book...I'd read it.

Several members, that feed large feral flocks and are being harrased, have contacted me prvately about this product in the past. Am I correct that the average consumer cannot purchase it?
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erickwolf



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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 11, 2010 7:42 pm

Matilda wrote:
erickwolf wrote:
We also appreciate the opportunity to provide feedback and information on OvoControl and contraceptive technology. The company started the project roughly 12 years ago. While birth control for people has been available for more than 50 years, the practice is essentially unheard of in non-captive animals. We originally viewed it as an opportunity to fill a market need -- more like common sense than anything else. In zoos, animals that breed too often are contracepted -- why not pigeons? Little did we know.

If we would have known the obstacles and resistance we would face, I would have never have volunteered to take the journey. Everything from large government agencies ostensibly responsible for the protection of wildlife to small businesses that derive a livelihood from poisoning pigeons (and many others in between) have opposed the new technology because it upsets the status-quo. I could write a book.

We fully appreciate that given conflict between man and pigeons, the pigeons typically lose. In this case, however, contraceptive technology provides a safe and effective method to keep both sides satisfied without having to kill birds in the process.

I hope we can count on the pigeon advocacy groups to support this humane management alternative.

I 'd like to hear more about that. If you wrote a book...I'd read it.

Several members, that feed large feral flocks and are being harrased, have contacted me prvately about this product in the past. Am I correct that the average consumer cannot purchase it?

No, that all changed in March, 2010 when EPA revised the classification of OvoControl from "restricted-use" to "general-use". See the announcement on the OvoControl website. With the exception of California and New York, OvoControl is available as a free-sale product without limitations.

We urge anyone that plans to use pigeon contraception to read the label as well as the directions for use prior to embarking on an OvoControl program. OvoControl is easy to use, but label directions should be followed to ensure the desired outcome.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 11, 2010 7:49 pm

Thank you
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 11, 2010 11:47 pm

Thank you for joining Pigeon Angels and participating in this discussion, Erick. Smile
It's quite an interesting subject and it's good to hear all sides of it.

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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EgypSwiftLady
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 12, 2010 8:01 am


I also want to thank you for the information about OvoControl Erick, I'd also like to read your book.

I think more should be done with wildlife & feral birth control in animals, this could solve many of the problems of over population with amny species in large cities.
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 12, 2010 8:10 pm

Members...I have invited Picas to comment in this thread .
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 12, 2010 8:43 pm

Great idea, Charis, to put questions directly to Erick and to Picas, we can all learn a great deal from the discussion. Great job
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 12, 2010 9:42 pm

The majority of questions and doubts regarding Ovocontrol relates to Coccidiosis. Namely, whether constant exposure to a coccidiostatic can affect the birds' immune system or otherwise lead to large numbers of deaths when there is an outbreak of coccidiosis.

Not a lot has been written on this by independent parties. But I remembered reading something relevant, and I've just found it.
You can read it here:
http://www.pigeonangels.com/pigeon-and-dove-illnesses-injuries-their-symptoms-and-treatment-f11/a-must-read-about-worms-t1194.htm
or go directly to the article:
http://www.albertaclassic.net/novice/Powdered_Droppings.php

According to the study mentioned, 3-week old chicks will already have developed immunity by being constantly exposed to the pathogens, and the same is believed to apply to pigeons:
Quote :
Clinical coccidiosis is caused by one species or a combination of species of Eimeria and can have a fatal outcome. However, one would question the immune status of the afflicted bird because immunity to the various species of Eimeria can be attained. It takes broiler chickens 3 weeks to develop complete protective immunity to E. tenella, E. maxima, and E. acervulina under continuous exposure.

If this is the case, squabs whose parents have been medicated for coccidia will not have the continuous exposure they need to obtain immunity, and contact with an infected bird newly arrived to the flock could kill large numbers of birds born to medicated parents. In this way, even if Ovocontrol does not in itself affect the birds' immune system, it could stop them from acquiring immunity.
What is needed is a study to determine this, but who would be prepared to go sampling droppings from city streets where Ovocontrol is being used, do regular fecal tests, and necropsy every single bird that dies?...
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 12, 2010 10:13 pm

Teresa...I think that if all goes as planned, there won't be any chicks, except in the beginning of course.
Baby chickens are fed medicated feed for about the first eight weeks to keep them from getting coccidia and until they build immunity.
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AZWhitefeather
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 12, 2010 10:29 pm

Matilda wrote:
Members...I have invited Picas to comment in this thread.

Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 142829

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Cindy

A Pigeon's Prayer
Please watch over us while we fly,
Keeping us safe from the predators that share the sky.

If we become ill or injured in any way,
Please lead us to safety where we are welcome to stay.
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Teresa
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 12, 2010 10:46 pm

Matilda wrote:
Teresa...I think that if all goes as planned, there won't be any chicks, except in the beginning of course.

Yes, I should have explained better, I meant fertile eggs being sat, squabs and young squeakers existing when the flock starts being medicated.

Quote :
Baby chickens are fed medicated feed for about the first eight weeks to keep them from getting coccidia and until they build immunity.

This is very interesting, but couldn't it be the case that baby chicks become protected from cocci because the med eradicates it from the coop? Surely building immunity involves exposure to the pathogen so the immune system learns to fight it.

Either way, if immunity is built up during the first weeks of life, Nicarbazin should have no detrimental effect on the immunity of fledgelings and older birds, as Erick says.


Last edited by Teresa on Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Matilda
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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jul 12, 2010 10:51 pm

Coccidia is in the environment, so the baby chickens are being medicatied at the same time they are being exposed.
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erickwolf



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PostSubject: Re: Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks   Birth Control for feral Pigeon Flocks - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Jul 13, 2010 10:46 am

Several clarifications and perspective on coccidia and coccidiosis in animals and especially pigeons,

  • There is a vast array of coccidial species that occur in animals -- anything that eats from the ground is prone to picking up this parasite. The eimeria species reported most prevalent in pigeons is Eimeria columbae. See Duszynski, 1998.

  • There is absolutely no data that shows that Eimeria columbae is sensitive to OvoControl or nicarbazin. In fact, in more than 50 years of experimentation, there is no documented eimeria sensitivity in species other than the ones that infect chickens.

  • Coccidiosis is a disease that occurs in young birds. If the bird achieves maturity, it has already developed immunity to the coccidia, independent of the drugs that may have been administered to treat or prevent the disease. Since coccidia are ubiquitous, we have no idea how a bird raised under natural conditions could possibly avoid coccidial exposure.

  • If the eggs are not hatching, there are no immature birds to get coccidiosis.


Hope this helps.
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