Help! My little pigeon is seriously ill!

Teresa, I also feel sorry to keep the cat on leash when the birds are in the cage in the main room but if I let her free she attacks the cage all the time, she climps on it, she tries to open its door and she scares the birds very much! The leash that I use is very long so it allows the cat to go anywhere she wants, she just can't reach the cage, which is in front of the window at the very edge of the room... Anyway, my room is small, so even if the cat was free, there wouldn't be much difference for her because she wouldn't have more space... I never wanted to take a cat (since I have the birds and my house is so small) but a friend of mine found it in the rubbish and she wanted to take it to the vet for euthanasia... The poor kitten had an infectious disease so nobody wanted her... I adopted her myself to save her! I got her disease myself but fortunately I recovered with antibiotics... Now the cat is healed but still nobody wants her and she is too attached to me, so I have kept her... I'm looking for a bigger house, where my animals would be happier but it takes time to find something good and not too expensive...

I hope you are right about Anemoni and the eggs are not broken inside her!

I listen to Charis very carefully and I always try to follow her advice! I trust her with all my heart! When I don't do what she says it's only when there are obstacles that prevent me or because I don't manage (as I don't have much experience with birds and sometimes I don't know how to deal with them), but NOT because I don't believe her or I don't take her seriously... In fact I'm very grateful to her for her help and this why I continue to ask for her advice and I post all these messages and updates...

Nightowl, it's true that I have more problems than 10 people but the situation is what it is either we like it not... One of my birds died, then its sister got sick, then the new baby got sick, then the parents got sick, now the females have problems with egg laying...!! One problem led to another and so I keep writing and asking for help! I know it's tiring for you to read all that, it is also tiring for me to write and to try to explain my situation and my problems, but I do it for the sake of my birds, as I rely on your comments and advice for helping them... What else can I do? I can't find an Avian vet in my city and the one I had was incompetent and she let my poor Laithi die...! Should I try to solve the problems by myself and not ask for anybody's help again so as not to tire you anymore? My pride tells me to do so, but my love for my birds urges me to keep writing...

Maybe I have made the situation more complicated than it is with my fears and confusion, but as I said, I'm not an expert in birds... I just love them and care for them... I feel very sorry to see them suffering and to force them to do things that they don't want, I would feel the same if they were my children! I know they need medicines and I give them to them, but it's not easy for me...

I buy for them the best seeds, all the seeds that are available in Venice, they have a great variety in their plates! I buy the seeds from the supermarket and not from a petshop so as to be sure that they are fresh! I buy organic things that do not contain preservatives and chemicals, even though they cost more! As for the cages of my birds, I clean them 2-3 times a week and they are not dirty... I change their water everyday to make sure it is clean and I sterilize the containers often! I thought that seeds were good for them, I din't know that they needed to eat other things as well... Now that I know, I try to give them more things, even if they don't like them... As for the medicines and the heating pad, I searched the whole city and the outskirts of the city to find them...! Do you think that I don't care enough for them?

Anyway, I'll post updates less often, because I don't want to tire you with my many words... From now on I'll write only if I have something important to tell you. I thank you all for your help, advice and interest in my birds!

Irene

Irene,
Please do continue to post updates on your birds.

There are members here more knowledgeable than others and that's most likely due to experience.

Like you, and others I'm sure, I am not very familiar with treating ill pigeons. Thankfully, in the eight years I have had pigeons, they have been healthy and I have very few ferals who require medical attention. But if a situation arises, I have a rehabber and very qualified vet nearby who can assist me. This is a luxury not many have.

You have a love for animals.
You stepped up and adopted a kitten rather than let it be put to sleep.
You have opened you home to a couple pigeons. Something very few will do.
You don't have much experience treating ill animals, but you are trying. Which is a lot more than many would do.
You have limited space and few resources, but you are working with what you have.

It's especially difficult to grasp everything and do it all as suggested.

my friend.
Again, please do continue with your updates as you have been.

Irene I haven't been posting at all here because I think you have more than enough people trying to help you.

I don't think anyone is getting tired of helping you either & I think you are doing everything you can to help your beloved pigeons. I think you read the post wrong & not how it was meant.

BUT you must understand that you are in charge of this & you must do what it takes to give your birds a healthy enviroment to live in. Here at our sanctuary we get so many animals & birds that are on the wrong diet, they weren't give the correct, many times not any, vitamins or minerals. Sometimes it takes alot to get them to switch to eating correctly but we keep trying & they do start eating whats good for them. Your pijjies will switch over.

Just remember that we are all learning even those that know so much.

Dear Cindy and Robin,

thank you very much for your kind and encouraging words... You are both wonderful and I'm sending you a big hug! I'm not angry or upset with anyone, I'm just afraid that perhaps I have been too open and talkative and that (without wanting) I have been trasmitting my fears, worries, stress and anxiety to other people who read my messages... I don't want to trouble anyone with my troubles... I should keep my thoughts and confusion to myself... That's why from now on I'll be more careful when I speak and I will avoid chatting too much... Of course I will continue to update you about my birds if you would like to know their news, but I'll try to be more concentrated on them and less on my own feelings, thoughts and situations... Thank you for the kindness and the understanding you have shown me, your help and all your nice comments! Keep writing to me too!

Lots of love
Irene

Hi Irene,

You shouldn't worry at all about writing anything you want to write, it's absolutely fine and I hope you continue to do it.

I think you misunderstood what was said -- I didn't think anybody's tired of reading your posts, just that everything that's going on in your life right now, and so many different patients to consider all at once, it's enough to make anyone feel dizzy!

Having said that, I myself thought that you weren't paying enough attention to some of the advice you were given, which was a disadvantage to your pigeons and more work for Charis, who has SO much work to do but found time to write really long and detailed posts. But now that you've explained your situation, I can understand what happened, your fears and the obstacles you encountered. As Cindy said, you can only do what you can do, and you're trying very hard to help your birds.

Good on you, saving the cat from certain death! Her situation doesn't seem so bad after what you said. I had imagined her leash being a lot shorter than it is. And at least she's alive and she's loved.

Finally, thank you for explaining, for keeping the communication open even when you thought things were going wrong. That takes courage, and a good heart, and I apologise if anything I said made you feel in any way uncomfortable.

Irene please don't stop letting us know how you feel, sometimes its hard to find people who understand how much one can love a pigeon. I had to discover pigeon forums to find people like myself who shared their hearts with these birds.

We understand you are trying to do the best for your pijjies, but sometimes that means you must take a firm hand by giving them wants good for them and saving what they like for treats. & floowing Charis' directions.

I look forward to up dates from you & we don't mind chatting either!

Thank you for your nice messages Teresa and Robin, you made me feel better...

Teresa, it's true that I didn't follow Charis's advice precisely, but the only reason is that I didn't manage... It's not that I didn't want to... For example, when she told me to use a heating pad for Comis I didn't have one and I had to search the whole city to find one to buy. However, I had used a hot water bottle for Comis... As for the medicines that Charis had suggested me to give to my adult birds, I didn't give them to the birds all at the same time (as Charis had recommended) but I gave them the Metronidazole and the Baytril first and the Nystatin and the Sulfac after. However, I did that NOT because I didn't take Charis seriously but only because I didn't manage to give them all those medicines at once, because they resisted a lot and I felt too sorry for them... It was MY WEAKNESS and I feel sorry that I didn't manage to do everything right, but again it has nothing to do with Charis... It only has to do with the fact that I am too sensitive and emotional and that I don't have experience with dealing with birds... (I had never given them medicines before...) The fact that I had 8 birds to treat made my situation much more difficult... I had to catch them many times a day, one by one, calm them down, try to open their beaks by force and give them their medicines... They tried desperately to escape from my hands... they looked at me as if I had betrayed them... I felt really sad for them... Not only that, but I had to work every day and it was not easy for me to to return home 4-5 times a day to give them their medicines... For these reasons ALONE, I didn't manage to give them all the medicines at once and so I gave them some medicines first and some second... But I did give them ALL the medicines that Charis suggested, the EXACT DOSES that she recommended! Fortunately the adult birds were not in a critical condition but when Comis was seriously ill, I gave her the medicines urgently, in the EXACT WAY that Charis told me! (Fortunately Comis didn't resist at all, so it was very easy to deal with her!) So, despite the obstacles, my lack of experience with birds and the difficulties I had in finding a heating pad and some of the medicines, I have given the right medicines to all my birds, and I have done EVERYTHING THAT CHARIS TOLD ME! As for my pigeons that suffer from egg binding, once again I have followed Charis' instructions and I'm giving them Calcium. I had also given them a warm bath (which unfortunately didn't work, perhaps because I didn't do it right...) and yesterday evening I also managed to find a wire extension so as to be able to put the heating pad in their cages! In the end, I did follow Charis' advice despite the obstacles...!

Robin, I'm also very glad to find people who love pigeons as much as I do, it's really wonderful that there is this site that is dedicated to them and we can talk about them and find solutions to their health problems... I thank God for it and for all the good-hearted people who are here...

Irene

Considering the situation you are in, and the fact that there's been so much to learn in such a short time, you've been doing a fantastic job!

Considering how you like cats as well, have a look at this video -- I think you'll love it:
http://www.pigeonangels.com/chitter-chatter-f19/is-this-cat-drinking-or-showering-d-t2388.htm

Thank you for your understanding Teresa and also for the amazing video of the cat that is having a shower!! I like it very much!!

I'm posting a photo of Halimah and Kirki in their nest with the heating pad in their cage... (you can see the wire of the pad hanging out of the cage)... I covered the heating pad with wet hay to create a warm moist as Charis suggested... I concealed the pad so well that they cannot even see it so they continue to lie in their nest on top of it and they are very calm...

Irene, I'm sure you already know this but change the wet hay, it should be just moist, everyday so mold doesn't have a chance to grow. The mold could/would start a whole new set of health problems.

Irene...never for a minute have I doubted your love for your birds.

I understand that with the difference in our language, there can be miscommunication of sorts. While you have the concept right about providing direct humidity...using the straw or hay is a very bad idea because even slightly wet, mold spores can start to grow which is difficult to diagnose and can make your birds deathly ill.

I would advise you to do this..
remove the wet straw or hay
get a hand towel and wet it with hot water
next... wring out the water so it is barely damp
put that on top of the heating pad

The other thing you can try is to spray a hand towel with hot water and then wring it out so it is barely damp.

Irene - better than the hay in the cage is newspaper and kitchen paper on top of that - several layers. this way you see immediately know how their poop is, you can clean better and every day or even remove the poop immediately and there is not the danger of mold. And they need something to perch on - I always use the pottery saucer of a planting pot wrapped in kitchen paper.

Robin and Charis, thank you a lot for telling me about the danger of using wet hay! I changed the hay immediately (fortunately it was not too wet... I had just put my hand under a tap of water and then I touched the hay a few times) and I used a slightly damp towel as Charis suggested. The birds are getting better and they are eating more, which is a good sign! I actually think that the egg in Arapis and Stachtoboota's nest is the fourth egg of Halimah and Kirki because Arapis and Stachtoboota abandoned it and I haven't found a second one in their nest since then... In fact, I'm not sure if Arapis and Stachtoboota are male and female, it could be that they are both male, because they are both very aggressive with the other birds and they behave like males! By the way, I wanted to ask you whether I should give Calcium to my male pigeons as well! I have been giving the 50mg pills only to Halimah, Kirki and Anemoni, which I know for sure that they are female... Should I give pills also to Arapis and Stachtoboota although they may both be male? .

Some days ago, a little water had dropped from the water container of Halimah, Kirki, Arapis and Stachtoboota, and I noticed that there were little white patches of mold on the newspaper under the hay! I changed the newspapers and the hay immediately, but since I read your last messages, I'm worried in case it was the mold that made Halimah sick and not really the egg laying... Two days ago, Halimah looked really miserable and she could not fly anymore... I put her in the huge cage in my bedroom together with the other birds, but she stayed on the floor all the time and when she tried to fly she fell down... She did not even want to eat! If her problem is not really egg binding, could it be something related to the mold?

Today I also noticed something strange in the behaviour of Selini... At some point she lifted up her tail and she started moving backwards, making circles and assymetrical movements... She interrupted her backward movements only to drink water a few times... She usually moves backwards when she wants to make a poop, but today she made several circles... I don't know if she had difficulty in making poops... When she finally made one, it looked like a dry long curved spaggetti... Then she lied down next to Comis and she looked normal again...

Pigeonwriter, thank you for your suggestions about replacing the hay with kitchen paper... I have actually done that for Comis and Selini... I have put kitchen paper in their basket so that I can change it often! But the problem with the other birds is that they start eating the paper or they tear it apart to play... I normally put newspapers in their cages and on top of them a layer of hay, on which they love to lie, because it is soft and warm. It also absorbs the poops so that the birds don't become dirty when they are walking around... But if it is dangerous, perhaps I could replace it with sand for parrots, would that do?

It is a good idea to put pot saucers so that the birds can perch on them, I'll try them too! I have put some wooden sticks (little tree branches) in the cages of my birds and they love to perch on them, but in the enormous cage that is in my bedroom the shelves are quite high, so Comis and Selini who cannot fly cannot reach them... I could place some saucers on the floor of that cage for them...! Thank you for sharing your good ideas with me!

Many greetings from Venice,
Irene

Hi Irene,

Halima is one of the birds that were recently treated with Nystatin, is that right? If it is so, she would have been relatively protected over the last few days and would be unlikely to get ill so quickly from exposure to the mould. I think it's more likely that she hasn't had a chance to absorb enough calcium yet, as the treatment began recently, and she's still showing signs of calcium deficiency.

I would say it's a good idea to give some calcium to the males as well. Even though they don't need quite as much as the females, they still need it to keep their bones strong.

You'll need to keep an eye on Selini for that 'walking backwards' routine. Let us know if she shows signs of lack of coordination, falling over or anything like that. She's been in constant contact with Comis, so if that's a sign of illness, Comis will get it too. If it is at all possible, try to keep Comis and Sellini separated from your other birds until you can be sure there's nothing to worry about.
If you can, please post a photo of Sellini's poop. Your description sounds okay, but if the poop is like broken spaghetti with a lot of liquid, that wouldn't be good.

I've never used parrot sand, but I think I read it isn't good for pigeons. It's better letting them tear up the newspaper (trying to make a nest, no doubt). Hay can be used as well, so long as it is dry -- the advice you got about using a towel was because you were trying to create a warm, humid environment, which would have made mould grow on the hay.
You know those gloves and pads made of microfiber, for cleaning surfaces? They're very soft, and my pigeons love sitting on them -- and they're SO easy to wash!
Here's a picture of my Sammy Sue on her blue microfiber nest:

Love the picture, Teresa.

I too think that Halima is still suffering from the lack of calcium, keep giving her the extra calcium for a bit longer... not sure how many days you've been giving it to her already.

As for something soft for them to sit/nest on, we use old cotton t shirts that are cut up into pieces long enough to fold & make a soft bed. The house pigeons & if we have ill pijjies love to sit on them and they are so easy to wash.

Teresa, thank you for your advice, explanations and suggestions! I'm glad that Nystatin has protected Halimah from the dangers of mould... I think both you and Robin are right, she was probably ill because of Calium deficiency. With the pills her condition is improving day by day! Now she is more lively and she is eating more! As for the doses of Calcium that I give to her, Kirki and Anemoni, I have followed Charis' instructions, so I gave them 50mg in the morning and 50mg in the evening for 3 days, and 50mg only in the evening for 2 days. Today they took their last doses. Shall I continue giving them pills? If I give pills to the males as well, for how many days should I treat them and what would be the right doses for them?

As for Selini, fortunately she is behaving normally these days... She hasn't made any strange movements again... I don't know how to describe her poops because they are not always the same... Sometimes they are long and dry in the shape of a worm, sometimes they are surrounded by a lot of liquid, and sometimes they are big with green liquid... I'll take a photo of them in the morning (now it's night) and I'll post it!

Both Comis and Selini seem to be getting better! Today they came out of their basket and they were having walks on the floor all day long! They kissed each other (they even tried to mate!) and they seemed happy! However, they are still lame... It looks as if the distance between their two legs is too wide and they are walking in a strange way... When Selini was little she looked normal, but now that she has grown up she is walking in a strange way like Comis... However, it doesn't seem to bother them at all!

I keep Comis and Selini separated from the other birds, in a big open basket with a blanket and kitchen paper on top of it. They like it a lot and they often perch on the walls of the basket. The other birds have many different nests! In the bathroom they have made nests of straw inside their cages, and in my bedroom they have wooden box nests with straw, which I have made for them myself, so they can choose the ones they like most. They are very undecisive and they keep fighting over the nests because all the couples have the same preferences and they all try to conquer the biggest ones! They are very ambitious, just like humans! Teresa, I agree with Cindy, your Sammy Sue is really lovely and she has a very modern nest!! You had a very good and original idea! Robin, your idea was also great! I'm sure the pieces of a cotton shirt make a wonderful soft bed for pijies! If I find any old shirts, I'll take advantage of them too! I thank both of you for sharing your ideas with me.

In a few days I'll travel to Greece to spend Christmas with my parents and I'll take my birds with me. I'll travel by ship and I'll trasport the birds in dark boxes so as not to get scared and stressed. They are going to have a great time in the home of my parents because it is big and they will fly around happily!

Irene

Irene...nystain will not protect your birds from mold...it is for yeast infection that is caused by antibiotics which kill the good bacteria, along with the bad bacteria, in their body.

You can stop with the calcium for now. I give extra calcium when they reject the eggs and until they lay more. Maybe in Greece you can find liquid calcium. If so, you can put some in their water a couple of times a week, each week and you won't need to use the pills.

I hope you have a lovely holiday.

Hi Irene,
You mentioned Seline and Comis' legs seems to be further apart than normal.
If possible could you post a picture of one of them standing, showing how far apart their legs are.
I hope you have a wonderful holiday with your parents.

Aaah... what a pity that Nystatin cannot do much...!! Anyway, I will make sure that mould doesn't form again in any part of the cages! I change the hay more often so as to be always dry and clean! As for Calcium, I'm sure I will find it in liquid in Greece. I live in a big city and I'm sure I won't have any problems there! Thank you for your advice Charis!

I'm posting a photo of Selini's latest poop and two photos of Selini herself (so that you can see how wide are her legs...! Comis's legs are also like that...)

Thank you for your wishes! I hope you will also have a wonderful Christmas with your families!

Irene...Selini's legs are lightly splayed. It's a condition that begins in the nest and has several causes. The causes are...poor nutrition, lack of calcium and/ or not enough traction underneath the baby. When they are babies, they need something beneath them that is not slippery.

Thanks for posting the pictures, Irene.

Matilda wrote:

Irene...Selini's legs are lightly splayed.

This is what I was thinking when Irene mentioned the legs being further apart than normal, hense the request for a picture.

Charis, thank you for explaining to me why Selini's legs are so widely apart from each other... It is true that both her and Comis suffered from bad nutrition because their parents abandoned them when they were still very little (because they had had many other babies before them and they had got tired of them...). It is also probable that they lacked Calcium because their parents fed them only seeds and bread... However, their nest was not slippery as it was made of straw... but the other two reasons are definetely valid! Anyway, it may be that the lameness of Comis and Selini is a result of their splayed legs and not a sign of illness! When they were little, their parents used to jump on them from high and they may have damaged the spine of Comis, which may be the reason why she can't fly... but the vet didn't find any abnormalities, so I'm not sure for that...

Cindy, I'm glad you found my photos of Selini useful and you had also suspected that there might be something wrong with her legs...

Irene

Their legs could probably still be fixed by taping. Otherwise, they will always have trouble with walking.

Niteowl, fortunately Comis and Selini CAN walk but they walk in a strange way, shaking too much because their legs are splayed... I think their worst problem is that they don't fly... They don't even try! Sometimes they flap their wings to exercise, but that's all... Perhaps their wings are too weak or they are also diplaced, I don't know... Comis is about 4 months old and Selini about 3, do you think I could still do something to put their legs in place, or is it too late now?

Today morning I had a bad surprise... I saw that Selini and Comis' poops were big and slimy with bright green liquid like Comis' poops were when she was seriously ill...! Could it be that the Canker has come back to them? Should I give them another cycle of Metronidazole (25mg for 5 days)? What do you think?

Here are the photos of Comis and the poops under her that I saw this morning: