The PMV Thread with Pina, Willy, Jimi and Winnie

pigeonwriter wrote:

Today Jimi has revealed himself: he can fly again . He flew through the whole room without any problems! Now I have to be extra careful. He still cannot eat by himself but I will watch this carefully during the next days.

I know he wants to get out again and he is terribly impatient what I can fully understand. But as long as he does not eat by himself there is no way out for him. But I also don't want to keep him locked in longer than necessary.

How do you decide whether a bird can be released or not after PMV?

Great news about Jimi flying, Petra.

With regard to releasing a PMV pigeon, everything I've read suggests that it not be done, in the event of a relapse.

Petra, pigeons are like children, they want things here and now. You must restrict Jimi as his immune system is still weak. You don't need more stress at this stage. Let him exercise, but limit his efforts.
As for releasing, well it is difficult to advice anything. I have a pigeon who I've got as squeaker. You know him, Nikolaj (from hula hop and girl swiping posts). He grow, wild and has been very difficult to keep inside. After first moult, he showed PMV symptoms, very mild and in a week fully recovered. No matter that I raised him, he was wild and would not let me near him. One day during the cleaning he escaped. Three days nothing. I was sick worried but what to do. Wished him best and stopped looking. Third day evening, while I was tending my birds, He zoomed straight like arrow in the loft and to me. He greeted me as his mate, jumped on my shoulder and cooed and preened me, he was picture of happiness. I let him stay. Since then I would let him out from time to time to fly and when I call, he is back.
Week ago he started showing stargazing walking backwards and in the circles. He does that for 2~3 minutes and after that he is back to normal. I just imagined what would happen if he was not back. If he was on the street and car, cat, dog was coming. He had PMV almost two years ago.
Well as I said, it is difficult to give advice here.

Hi Petra,
I'm just checking in to see how things are going.
I hope you and your feathered ones are doing well.

When or even whether to release is a hard call, and may depend on the severity of the symptoms.
In Sammy's case, there's no question of release -- it's been 3 months and he still needs to be fed. But on the other hand, Grumpy the feral (https://pij-n-angels.forumotion.net/chitter-chatter-f19/christmas-hasn-t-come-early-it-just-looks-that-way-t695.htm), who I never saw showing any neurological symptoms, is doing fine out there, with extra rations and vitamins. Another PMV survivor, Poppet, had paralysis and poor balance and the typical poops, but again no stargazing. When he got better he escaped, and he also managed well outside.
It's very unsettling to know that the neurological symptoms can come back unexpectedly, so I would err on the side of caution.

Hi dear friends,

haven't been on the computer for a couple of days besides checking emails. So I apologize not giving an update earlier but I think you will surely understand that my pijjies are first place and then......

Cindy - thank you so much for your concern but everything is going ok - again...

Plamenh - thank you for your answer - I thought the same but it helps to hear the experience of others.

Teresa - I know it's a difficult thing to ask but I am glad to hear that it can go okay too. I feel that Jimy is on the best way to get free again. Besides not yet being able to feed himself though he did not show any other symptoms for more than 2 weeks now.

So here is a little update:

Jimi - he is doing really well. He is very calm, saves his energy and gets only upset when Willy is molesting him. He can fly - it is getting harder to catch him but normally he sits on a big stone on the edge on his box and looks out of the window. So when he has to go into the box I just point the finger and move the cover closer on him - he then hops into the box.
He enjoyed his bath yesterday very much - lying for a long time in the warm water and making funny faces. Next time I will use the camera.
He gained weight - 25 gr within last week :eek: - he has now 430 gr!

Willy - he is continuously my little baby to worry about. A couple of days ago he had bad seizures during the night again, circling like crazy and vomitting half of his supper. So I put him back on one day babyfood and strict "bedrest" i.e. in the box for one day with the cover closed and darkened. It helped and the next day he was as cheeky as before and ate normal food again without any problems. What amazed me also was that he suddenly could jump out of his box and fly short distances. He is still quite clumsy when he tries to land - mostly he lands on his nose - but he is exercising and does not give up. He is not so anxious any more and runs around as usual.
AND
he's gained weight as well - 20 gr within last week :eek: - I hardly can believe this. He is now on 380 gr. I think this is really good and shows me that he is improving too despite those little relapses. This gives him more powr to fight off the virus. I am very glad for my little baby.

Pina - she is getting fat :eek: - she gained 30 gr within one week. I cannot believe this. How is this possible???? Slowly I have to take care that she is not getting too plump otherwise she will be rolled rather than fly in future. She is now on 360 gr.
She is still showing heavy symptoms like stargazing. I wonder whether she will ever get her head really straight again. My poor baby - I can only hope that this will improve suddenly one day. At the moment I see no progress. But at least she has a good appetite.

All 3 birds try to pick and exercise eating and I hope very much this will come back one day again, that they can eat by themselves. Currently I have to handfeed them twice a day still.
Each of them gets 10 ml chamomille tea with a tiny bit of honey and vitamins first thing in the morning. I think this helps to clean their crops if there is anything left from the evening before. After a pause - while I clean the boxes - I feed them a few peas (10-15) first and then the homemade pellets (ca. 30). This seems to work now. I think the peas replace the "green food" they are eating in the wild quite well. I have read that pigeons love to eat the pea plants in gardens.
They get the same for supper. Their poops look still a bit too soft but at least not so sick any more as before. I am checking their mouths each day also and take a good sniff at it. Poops are totally odourless.
Twice a week I also feed them some (very few) herb pellets, containing all sorts of herbs and garlic. And once a week they get Sandoz Calcium in their drinking water. They have access to grit each day and I think they are all able to eat at least some of the tiny stones and shells etc. At least I see them picking and swallowing from time to time.

If you have any suggestions what else I could do for them to speed up recovery I were very grateful!

No suggestions from me Petra, you are having everything under control there.
I'm glad to hear that they are doing well.
Baths and sitting on the eggs are most benefiting therapies for my PMV birds.

plamenh wrote:

No suggestions from me Petra, you are having everything under control there.
I'm glad to hear that they are doing well.
Baths and sitting on the eggs are most benefiting therapies for my PMV birds.

I agree that you are doing eveything you can. Just to add, the slightly soft poops are because of the diet. Once they are eating seed again, the poop will firm up.

Plamenh - thank you - that's good to hear. I am offering them every few days a bath depending on their condition.

Charis - that's what I hoped - thank you for confirming. Guess I am overreacting sometimes - no wonder

I've only just seen this thread and am so sorry to hear what you and your winged friends have been through. It does sound like things are slowly improving and that you have everything - including your own nerves - well under control. GOOD JOB!!!

We will be sending good, healing energy to you and your entire flock!!

Here are some updates on our sick pigeons again:

There is nothing really special - the days have become routine in some way.
First thing in the morning I am cooking chamomille tea for the birds with a drop of honey and their vitamins. Then I let them run for a while so that they can make their exercises, helicoptering, flying, running around. Then I clean their boxes and after first feed on the balcony where the others are waiting for me too - Pina, Willy and Jimi are being fed: defrosted peas and the pellets. After that they are normally tired and they are packed back into their boxes. Now it is time for my own work.

When I have to leave the house the birds are packed back into their boxes and as soon as I am home again they are running free again until supper. So again feeding peas and pellets, they are getting a fresh drink in their boxes again and are put to sleep. Now it is my time again. Each day there are little things happening which make us laugh - the birds are so funny despite their illness . The days are fully packed and although it is so much extra work I would not miss it. The only thing is that I wish with all my heart that they can fly free again one day. Each time when I think of how they loved flying I am getting sad to see them so deprived of their purpose .

Pina - she is still the one with the most symptoms: stargazing, walking backwards and in circles, not able to eat by herself, missing flight reflex. 9 weeks ago she was diagnosed with PMV. But besides all these problems she is doing well. Pina is the sweet baby she has always been. She eats well and has gained weight. She is now on 375 gr - originally she had 315 gr.
She is running around with Willy when she is outside the box. She is cuddling with him, grooming him and seems to feel quite okay. When she feels Willy is too bossy she tries to hide behind my feet while I am in the kitchen or sitting at the computer. She always seeks protection from me. Isn't that sweet?
I only hope she does keep her head straight one day again. I have no idea though how long this will take. Sometimes it seems to become better then there is a little relapse again. I am giving her little tasks such as putting her on a basket so that she has to exercise her balance etc.

Willy - he has started to fly as well. But he is a real crash pilot. Oh my - I sometimes have the feeling he just jumps down from his box or the table or chair without looking where he wants to go just for the pure fun of it - and often lands on his nose=beak or he has to support himself with one of his wings. :eek: Due to the soft carpets he cannot hurt himself. Only sometimes he bumps into the closet but so far he has not hurt himself. He is still wild Willy and I am sure if he could speak he would scream "bansai" and then off he goes like a karate fighter. He sometimes tries to fly up, ends up in strange circles and bumps into something :eek:. It is very uncontrolled but at least he trains his muscles this way. He has become very strong in the meanwhile and it is sometimes quite difficult to get hold of him. But he has learned to go back into his box quite "deliberately" when I gently conduct him in that direction. Isn't that awsome? Like a performing doggy.
But altogether I think this all is a big improvement although he still cannot eat be himself either. The symptoms like stargazing, trembling and circling have disappeared entirely in the meanwhile. He has gained a good weight and is now on 385 gr (last Sunday)

Jimi - I am quite sure that he will be able to fly free again one day. He does not show any more symptoms at all besides that he still cannot eat by himself. He also jumps back into his box when I "tell" him so. It's a great relief not being forced to chase him through the whole appartment when he has to go back into his box. He is the calm one of the 3. He regularly sits on his "balcony" - a heavy flat stone on the edge of his box which is standing in the big window and likes to look outside. From time to time when Willy is busy with Pina or lying in a corner somewhere he comes down for helicoptering or walking around a bit but as soon as Willy sees him and tries to get him he jumps back on his "roosting" place.
Jimi has become quite a heavy weight: 430 gr. he has since 2 weeks now. I think this is a good sign for his recovery.

What I do not understand is that all 3 pijjies still are not able to feed themselves. They all try to pick seeds (I give them many different sizes - from millet to barley and corn etc.) but apparently the connection between picking up seed and swallowing is still malfunctioning. It is strange that they all are capable of drinking themselves - so what is the difference? I have no idea what I could do about this when at all . Any ideas?

Okay - this is it for now...

Just give them seeds in deep dish and let them keep on trying. You can even stimulate them by feeding them bit later.

Thanks Plamenh - I have tried that already - if given them a bit less in order to stimulate their appetite but until today to no avail. But they continue to try themselves. Maybe one day it will work again :Rolling eyes:

Appreciate the update, Petra.
I'm glad to hear things continue to head in a positive direction.
The weight gain is deserving of a two thumbs up!!

You are doing such an awesome job. Bless you all.

Cindy,
I could not have done this without the knowledge and support of you guys. I am grateful for this as without you my beloved angels were dead by now

Fancyfeathers wrote:

The weight gain is deserving of a two thumbs up!!

You are doing such an awesome job. Bless you all.

Petra, Bless you!!!

Best wishes,
Carol

pigeonwriter wrote:

Cindy,
I could not have done this without the knowledge and support of you guys.

I am grateful for this as without you my beloved angels were dead by now

Gotta love teamwork.

Two or three weeks ago I reported that Willy vomitted and I had to put him on baby cereal again. The reason for his vomitting was not the sickness/PMV it is much simpler: he cannot tolerate peanuts. Yesterday before I fed them all a few peanuts in addition to their regular pea/pellets diet in order to waken their taste to other food again and Willy vomitted the peanuts - and only the peanuts. Now I knew. When he vomitted some time ago I had grinded peanuts in the pellets - no wonder!!!

It has never come into my mind that birds may have some intolerances regarding their food just the same way as humans. Stupid me!!! Now the mystery is lifted - no peanuts in any form for Willy and everything's okay.

Btw - Willy managed to fly on top of the closet this evening . He had to work hard to reach the top but he made it. This means he is getting stronger and stronger which of course makes it more and more difficult for me to have him under control as a consequence . But isn't this a wonderful achievement?

And he was in such a miserable state at the beginning that I feared that he would never recover again. He's gained another 10 gr within the last week and is on 395 gr now. What a relief for me. At the beginning he probably had no more than 330 gr - so thin as he was.
Pina has gained another 5 gr and weighs 380 gr now (but she is still very young, just 6 months and is still growing), Jimi stayed the same - 430 gr. This has not changed during the last 3 weeks now which tells me that he has his normal weight now.

I'm glad the mystery is solved about Willy. Petra.

I had no idea that pigeons could be intolerant of peanuts! Well observed, Petra! That should make it easier to plan Willy's diet, and thank you for sharing the information.

My goodness Petra...I never would have thought it.

Does anything speak against giving feral pigeons little pieces (and few) of fruit to eat? I want to give our PMV birds even more variety in their diet, so I fed them some pieces of red grapes. All of them seemed to smack upon that uncommon food and I could not detect any problems in their poop this morning.

I thought about adding one or 2 raisins from time to time, or dried apple pieces - or fresh. Anything against this?

I also decided to add herb pellets to their food - i.e. I added them to the mixture of pellets which I make myself. They contain

crude protein 9 %
crude oil 4 %
crude ash 3 %
crude fiber 3 %
calcium 1,2 %
Phosphor 0,8 %
Vitamin A 15.000 IE/kg
Vitamin D3 3.000 IE/kg
Vitamin E 25 mg/kg
Vitamin K3 1,5 mg/kg
Vitamin B1 2 mg/kg
Vitamin B2 8 mg/kg
Vitamin B3 15,7 mg/kg
Vitamin B12 15 µg/kg
Vitamin C 30 mg/kg
Vitamin PP 40 mg/kg
Folic acid 0,5 mg/kg
Biotin 30 µg/kg
Cholin Chlorid 700 mg/kg and
onions and garlic.

Petra, I would avoid grapes. I will try to find some information to post about them. They are toxic to dogs and Dr Sheaffer recently told me that some bird deaths have been associated with grapes as well.
Did you see the nutrition guide I posted a few days ago?

Petra...I see that you did see the guide.

Petra...the problem is with grapes grown in Chilli and Mexico, so avoid those. Many Pigeons love bananas so manybe they would be a good addition to the diet. The other option would be cooked sweet potatoes.

Charis, thank you very much!
Could it be that it is not so much the grapes themselves which cause the problem but the potential fungicides and insecticides with which they are sprayed in those countries?