The PMV Thread with Pina, Willy, Jimi and Winnie

Still sending love and keeping you Willy and Pina in my thoughts.

Janet

Petra...............I'm so sorry you have been under so much stress recently. You are doing a great job caring for your birds. Make sure you take the time to take care of yourself as well.

Glad to hear Willy and Pina are feeling a little bit better. I'm hoping to hear good news from you with their continued improvement.

Louise

plamenh wrote:

When a poop starts improoving, PMV is at the end.

Plamenh - thank you - but Pina still has those terrible seizures and she hardly can hold her head upright. Most of the time she is bend downwards with her head on the bottom as if she tries to hold herself this way. When will this end approximately? Can one say anything about this? She still is completely unable to eat or drink for herself.

Her poops are sometimes better sometimes worse again. It is an up and down at the moment. My poor little baby is still terrible to look at especially when she has those cramps where even her claws are clenched - sometimes they are clenched around my fingers when I just try to hold her. It is now 10 days since these symptoms started.

On a positive side - she did not lose any weight what really amazes me regarding the energy she loses when she starts circling in her cardbox like crazy. Today she even went from 310 to 325 gr and she seemingly has a bit more power when I take her up to feed her. If I only knew that these symptoms will decrease in a short time I would feel much better...

Poor Pina! I know just how you feel, but I can't tell you any more for now except that the course of the disease usually takes 4 to 6 weeks.
I was checking up today, I got Sammy on October 5th (that's 7 weeks ago!) and I still see no light at the end of the tunnel -- but then again, he only started showing severe neurological symptoms a month ago. We may be in for a long haul.
The thawed peas diet produces very decent-looking poops, which I guess are not representative of a true improvement, not yet. So I guess we mustn't despair, nor have very high expectations. One day at the time, they'll get there. It's good that Pina is putting on weight, that will keep her strong for the battle against the disease.

A big hug to you and your little patients.

[quote]Poor Pina! I know just how you feel, but I can't tell you any more for now except that the course of the disease usually takes 4 to 6 weeks.[/quote]

Unfortunately there is no timetable for recovery although they only shed the virus for 6 weeks. In one particularly bad case that I know of the pigeon was still showing severe neurological symptoms after 17 weeks. Her rescuer was a vet, who decided that the kindest thing would be to put the pigeon down. But when she went to do it she found that the pigeon had made a spontaneous and timely recovery overnight! :Way To Go:

Petra, you could try the homeopathic remedy Connium Mac, that has worked well in some cases. but you have to compare the pigeons symptoms to the modalities of that particular remedy.

Hypericum, Conium Maculatum and Belladona can be used in PMV birds to reduce seizures.
I found that treatment with immune boosters such as Beta Glucan, Beta Carotene, Grape Seed Extract, Grapefruit Extract, Calcium Ascorbate Cinnamon etc. help fighting virus, speed up recovery and shorten illness period.

How is Pina doing today Petra?

On Wednesday we were at the vet again with Willy. Acc. to the test there are no salmonella but an E.coli infection instead (Pina's test). I don't know what is worse.

The vet gave me some Bird Bene Bac which I am supposed to give Pina for the next 3 days.
What I am feeding right now to Pina is:
de-frosted peas and homemade pellets 3 times a day and she gets chamomille tea with vitamins alternately to ricepudding (long cooked rice in water) mixed with joghurt and vitamins, thinned with warm water so that it can be sucked up with the syringe.

The pellets are made from grinded peanuts, oat flakes, joghurt and vitamins.
I think this food is good for her as she has not vomited once or become really bad poop as it was at the beginning. She does not urinate as much as before. The poop is not at all smelly either - you can smell a bit the joghurt feeding. Is this a good or a bad sign??

I am feeding Willy the same - only that he gets a bit more than Pina. His poop has improved as well a bit although it is far from being healthy. He also still does not eat by himself so has to be fed by hand also. But he seems to be able to drink by himself sometimes but I am not sure though. I am giving him fluid with syring anyway.

He has become stronger at least but he is still quite thin. I can still feel the breastbone too much i.e. the lack of muscle flesh on his chest. But this of course will take time to build up again.
I am still not sure whether he also has PMV. The vet says he has, due to his systemical disorder and the tremor of his head. Although he does not show any torticollis symptoms, no stargazing and no circling around like Pina, he still shows fine tremors of his head especially when he is in stress. His movements are still quite un-coordinated and when he tries to pick he cannot pick up seeds to eat by himself.

He's received another antibiotics injection though and a medication against fungus which I was supposed to give him the next day, which I did. On Thursday he was really feeling bad, absolutely listless and I already feared the worst. I also had the feeling that his crop was somehow inflated so that I had the feeling that it did not empty as it should. So I decided on Thursday to put him on fluid nutrition:
I tubefed him every 2-3 hours with a mixture from soft rice, oatflakes, joghurt, vitamins, a few drops of honey and apple vinegar, hot water to warm this up. Apparently this did him good because the next day he felt better again, started to preen himself a bit and was relaxing on his belly again. He seemed to have been in pain the day before.

Additionally to all the worries and the stress the vet was behaving really obnoxious. She more or less told me that I was doing everything wrong, contradicted herself all the time so that I did not dare to ask her any more questions because I feared not being able to shut my mouth any longer. She accused me practically of giving Willy not enough warmth because he had cold feet. But this was only from the drive to the vet. I did not think to give him some hotpacks into his little cardbox. She told me I need to buy this and that for the birds as if I had an unlimited financial resources which is currently very tough for my partner and me anyway. She was really very insensitive.

So you can probably imagine my feelings when we had to drive to the vet again today. But this time everything went well - apparently she was in a better mood - and told me that I would do everything right!????

I am still not sure whether Willy has PMV as well. We will see. I took him out of his cardbox and put him in a new transparent plastic box where he has more space and can see what is around him. I will make some photos tomorrow. This morning Willy began to sing again my partner said - I did not hear it unfortunately because I was probably in a kind of deep coma sleep at 5°clock in the morning.

Next week I will buy for Pina the same box. I find these more practical than a cage because it is warmer and they cannot hurt themselves. It is easily cleaned etc.

So off to feeding again. More later....

plamenh wrote:

Hypericum, Conium Maculatum and Belladona can be used in PMV birds to reduce seizures.
I found that treatment with immune boosters such as Beta Glucan, Beta Carotene, Grape Seed Extract, Grapefruit Extract, Calcium Ascorbate Cinnamon etc. help fighting virus, speed up recovery and shorten illness period.

Plamenh - this sounds very interesting but I would need to know exactly in which dilution. You probably use the globuli? But in which D? These medics are quite expensive in Germany and I would need to know what I should try first/best?

Thank you so much for your help!!!

Petra, can I send you the homeopathic remedies? You have to take care not to touch them as to do so affects their energy and effectiveness, and must stop giving them as soon as the patient shows an improvement.

This week is the ninth anniversary of the week in 2000 in which I picked up my pigeons Hurdy and Gurdy. They both had PMV, very badly.

In those days I thought that pigeons needed to be outside, and knew nothing about probiotics or immune boosters or homeopathic remedies, so I kept them in a cold shed until they recovered...their complete recovery took some time, but they have been perfectly healthy ever since. No residual symptoms, no relapses...just happy healthy pigeons.

Added: from my PMV thread: [i] SOME USEFUL HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES[/b]

I have had some success treating the paralysis/stroke symptoms of Pigeon PMV using the homeopathic remedy Conium Maculatum (common hemlock) dosing with a single tablet of the 30 potency three times a day for up to 10 days.

Birds that tremble and fall over when they try to move because their balance is impaired may benefit from Argenitum Nit 30 potency, one tablet given 3 or 4 times a day for up to 2 days.

Belladonna can be used for birds that are restless with convulsive movement and jerking limbs. 2 pilules twice a day.

Hypericum has also been useful.[/i]

I am certain that with all the extra care that your two are benefitting from they too will recover.

Plamenh, it is interesting that you recommend Hypericum. When I first decided to find a homeopathic remedy for PMV that was the first one that matched my pigeon Feefo's modalities and I was certain that it had contribuited to her spontaneous improvement but could never be sure. I will add it to my PMV thread.

We appreciate the update, Petra.

I'm just catching up on this thread and just wanted to let you know Petra that I hope Pina recovers soon and I'll keep her in my prayers.

pigeonwriter wrote:

plamenh wrote:

Hypericum, Conium Maculatum and Belladona can be used in PMV birds to reduce seizures.
I found that treatment with immune boosters such as Beta Glucan, Beta Carotene, Grape Seed Extract, Grapefruit Extract, Calcium Ascorbate Cinnamon etc. help fighting virus, speed up recovery and shorten illness period.

Plamenh - this sounds very interesting but I would need to know exactly in which dilution. You probably use the globuli? But in which D? These medics are quite expensive in Germany and I would need to know what I should try first/best?

Thank you so much for your help!!!

Hypricum (St. John's wort) - potency 30 single tablet twice a day for up to 5 days. (calming effect)
Conium Maculatum (common hemlock) - potency 30 single tablet three times a day for up to 10 days. (seizures trembling)
Argenitum Nitricum- 30 potency, one tablet given 3 or 4 times a day for up to 2 days. (seizures trembling)
Belladonna - 2 pilules potency 30 twice a day 3~4 days. (seizures trembling calming effect)
If you use higher potency, dosages should be reduced too. There is no real danger of overdosing, but bird may benefit from less handling. I would try Argentum or Belladona depending what is available.
Immune boosters may be combined without danger for bird.
Beta Glucan - 2 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Beta Carotene - 1 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Grape Seed Extract - 5 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Grapefruit Extract - 5 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Calcium Ascorbate - 50 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Cinnamon - in a form of tea 1 teaspoon in 1 L boiling water for 2~3 days.

Don't get bogged down by what the Vet has to say about you. You are doing an awesome job in taking care of both Pina and Willy. I am sure they will recover soon.

plamenh wrote:

pigeonwriter wrote:

plamenh wrote:

Hypericum, Conium Maculatum and Belladona can be used in PMV birds to reduce seizures.
I found that treatment with immune boosters such as Beta Glucan, Beta Carotene, Grape Seed Extract, Grapefruit Extract, Calcium Ascorbate Cinnamon etc. help fighting virus, speed up recovery and shorten illness period.

Plamenh - this sounds very interesting but I would need to know exactly in which dilution. You probably use the globuli? But in which D? These medics are quite expensive in Germany and I would need to know what I should try first/best?

Thank you so much for your help!!!

Hypricum (St. John's wort) - potency 30 single tablet twice a day for up to 5 days. (calming effect)
Conium Maculatum (common hemlock) - potency 30 single tablet three times a day for up to 10 days. (seizures trembling)
Argenitum Nitricum- 30 potency, one tablet given 3 or 4 times a day for up to 2 days. (seizures trembling)
Belladonna - 2 pilules potency 30 twice a day 3~4 days. (seizures trembling calming effect)
If you use higher potency, dosages should be reduced too. There is no real danger of overdosing, but bird may benefit from less handling. I would try Argentum or Belladona depending what is available.
Immune boosters may be combined without danger for bird.
Beta Glucan - 2 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Beta Carotene - 1 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Grape Seed Extract - 5 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Grapefruit Extract - 5 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Calcium Ascorbate - 50 mg daily for 10 days, or until disease is over
Cinnamon - in a form of tea 1 teaspoon in 1 L boiling water for 2~3 days.

This is really good information, plamenh.

Petra...I admire your committment and am sending my best love to you and Pina and Willy.

Thank you, plamenh. Great information you've posted.

Hi Petra,
I realize how overwhelming all this can be.
The majority, if not all, of us have been through the trials and tribulations of pigeon and dove illnesses at one time or another.

There are several reasons I created Pigeon Angels. My ultimate goal was, and still is, to help the rescuer help the rescued.
Although our opinions and suggestions may vary at times, our hearts always agree that we only want the best outcome for the bird in question.
You have done an amazing job of taking in all the opinions and suggestions presented, which can be a challenge in itself.

Positive thoughts and healing wishes continue.

Hi Petra,

I'm glad your vet was in a better mood the last time you saw her -- shame she couldn't have been in a good mood BOTH TIMES! When you're pouring all your dedication, time and money into helping your pigeons, the last thing you need to hear is hurtful nonsense! Take no notice of that, you're doing an AWESOME job!

Best wishes for Pina and Willy!

Teresa wrote:

Hi Petra,

I'm glad your vet was in a better mood the last time you saw her -- shame she couldn't have been in a good mood BOTH TIMES! When you're pouring all your dedication, time and money into helping your pigeons, the last thing you need to hear is hurtful nonsense! Take no notice of that, you're doing an AWESOME job!

Best wishes for Pina and Willy!

I totally agree and am keeping you all in my thoughts.

Janet

How are Pina and Willie doing, Petra?

First of all I want to thank you for your wonderful continuous support. I also want to apologize that my current posts of thanking everyone extra are very sparse at the moment but I am currently trying to desperately cope with this situation and regular life and work which is not quite easy. This all is just a bit overwhelming but I am sure there will be better days again.

Here is a new update on Pina and Willy.

Pina's condition has dramatically improved since 2 days now so that I can hardly believe it. Since sunday she did not have a single real seizure like circling around like crazy for minutes or even falling over. She still does stargazing and is circling but not with that violence any more - she somehow has learned to cope with it i.e. how to support herself while putting her head on one of the paper rolls I have put into her box.

I have not noticed any cold feet but I am regularly changing the hot waterbottle. Her poop became more formed but is still a bit too soft. Her digestion seems to function properly though - her crop is emptying.

Yesterday I gave her a little bowl with grit and parrot sand that includes minerals and calcium and she started to pick in it. She even ate the one or other little piece.
She also has started to preen herself extensively since sunday and it looks orderly how she does it - it looks as if she had never been sick. and she started to stretch herself and trained a bit her flight muscles - flapping wings!!

Today I let her out on the floor for a while where she could better train her wing muscles and stretch herself while I was on guard of course. She apparently enjoyed it greatly, started to pick at all kinds of things and had a long nap afterwards.
When I fed her this evening I did not give her anything to drink afterwards - the result: she went to her drinking pot and drank all herself. What an improvement! I am greatly pleased and happy.


Symptoms of Pina right now are:

- stargazing
- sleepy
- poop bit too soft still but getting better
- not able to eat yet but can drink by herself - Pina seems to have appetite
- some slight circling - but stops very quickly
- cannot fly
- warm feet
- damaged wing feathers - 2 pieces(quills are crippled somehow)


If there had been still doubt whether Willy has PMV this has been eradicated. He was circling today again but only once or twice and it stopped quickly. Now that both pigeons are in a transparent box side by side and can look out of the window, see the other pigeons running around they seem to feel much better. At least that's my impression.

Today Willy has even found his voice again. It was so funny - outside the window were several pigeons jumping on a little wooden board, peeking inside and seemingly very interested in Willy's food. He - seeing the other pij - was getting angry and started to coo in dismay. He even circled a bit as if he wanted to court. He is sick, cannot eat but he can coo again. Isn't this great? How I love to hear his voice again!

He is still a little problem when I have to feed him. While he likes to be wrapped up like a burrito (your photo, Teresa, is devine ) he does not like to be fed and each time I have to soft-force him to eat. Do you have any idea how I can get him to eat more deliberately? He is still too thin. He started flapping his wings today too - apparantly he is motivated by Pina.

Willy's symptoms are different and not as severe as Pina's. He is very sick though and far from being his former self.

Symptoms of Willy are now:

- weight loss before I could take him in (stopped)
- head tremors (quite heavy)
- nervous twitching while preening - appears a bit un-coordinated
- poop still a bit too soft but getting better
- not able to drink or eat by himself - no appetite - does not really like to be fed but he swallows what I put into his mouth (it's getting better though)
- crop slightly inflated (as if he is cold but he isn't - warm feet)
- slight circling
- cannot fly (but has a lot of power still when I have to grab him)
- seems in need of more warmth (probably due to former weight loss) has sometimes cold feet
- also found a damaged wing feather and today a damaged tail feather (the quill is somehow crippled)


My question: are crippled feathers also a consequence of PMV?

What a RELIEF that they are improving. I can't stop thinking about them and you. I know how intense this is for you. You are doing an outstanding job.

What you mean by crippled feathers? Can you post a picture?

Willy may not like to be hand fed but since he can't eat on his own yet, it's the only way. I hope that soon he and Pina will be able to eat by themselves and with the way they are both improving, it could be anytime.

Here are the photos I promised - how Pina and Willy live right now:









This is the same place where I kept Pina and Peppi after their injury. Here ii is easy for them to watch all the other pijjies outside and they get a bit sunshine in the morning...

I appreciate the update, Petra.
I'm glad to hear that things seem to be improving.

Positive thoughts continue.
Please keep us posted.