The Alice and Winnie Story (part II)

Petra...the links didn't have anything in them.

Hi Petra,
You can order baytril from Biovet.com - biovet@biovet.com
It is called Biofloxavet D (Enrofloxacin) or Biofloxavet C in tablet form.

I have Baytril to send you, but I doubt that it will go trough the customs as you mentioned.
In the mean time you can try to use my favourite cinnamon tea with honey. It will help with digestion and firm up poop.

Matilda wrote:

Petra...the links didn't have anything in them.

Charis, I have no idea what happened. and I cannot find the links any more. Shame.

plamenh wrote:

Hi Petra,
You can order baytril from Biovet.com - biovet@biovet.com
It is called Biofloxavet D (Enrofloxacin) or Biofloxavet C in tablet form.

I have Baytril to send you, but I doubt that it will go trough the customs as you mentioned.
In the mean time you can try to use my favourite cinnamon tea with honey. It will help with digestion and firm up poop.

Thank you so much Plamenh. You are so right - won't go through customs. I will write to them - Biovet - and ask for quantities and prices. Is the Biofloxavet D a fluid for oral application? What is better to use?

Biofloxavet D is 5% Baytril solution - fluid. I prefer tablets as they last longer. Fluid expires quickly once open.

pigeonwriter wrote:

Still waiting for the Baytril to arrive but maybe it will on Monday or Tuesday.

Hi Petra,
Just checking in to see if the Baytril arrived.
I hope things are going well.

plamenh wrote:

Biofloxavet D is 5% Baytril solution - fluid. I prefer tablets as they last longer. Fluid expires quickly once open.

Plamenh, thank you so much again. Sorry that I did not answer earlier.
The downturn is that I wrote to them but I did not receive an answer at all.

Oh Petra I have just caught up on your thread and just wanted to send my heartfelt sympathies about your pijjies

I hope so very much that you have recieved the meds, that Alice and Winnie continue to get well and none of the others in the flock have become ill.

I sorry to also hear that your downstairs neighbor is such a poop and really needs to become a nice person. :Yes:

Fancyfeathers wrote:

pigeonwriter wrote:

Still waiting for the Baytril to arrive but maybe it will on Monday or Tuesday.

Hi Petra,
Just checking in to see if the Baytril arrived.
I hope things are going well.

Hi Cindy, my apologies for not giving an update earlier but things started to get a bit out of control here in my little "pigeon hospital" - I was just totally swamped and if my partner would not have kept an eye on me and what needed to be done next I probably would have given up already....

So I try to give this update now:

First - yes the Baytril arrived on Tuesday lunchtime. But as I had to devide it up between Alice and Winnie today was the 5th day and last where I could apply the medicine. Cynthia is such an angel. She wrote me detailed instructions and some more Baytril is on the way now. I only hope that it arrives soon so that there are not too many days between the medications.

I called the bird clinic here in Munich in order to try to get a prescription without handing my pijjies over to them. It was a disaster. The arrogant voice on the phone told me that it is impossible to get a prescription without showing them the birds for examination. And what then happens is clear: they would take the birds, either euthanize them or even use them for clinical tests. They are also an institute for avian research. I don't trust them. They tell people they would take care and them release them again. Mon oeuil
I am sure I wouldn't get the birds back. So this is not an option for me!

Here in Germany it is a mafia like system between vets and pharmacies. The whole bloody prescription thing is only a means to restrict people and patronize them. An easy means to guarantee the vet's income. I just hate them and am not going to pay them additionally. Vets can make their own prices and be sure - they require a whole lot for every little sneeze.
No more!

So I have to rely on you and on myself.

Alice - the sweet little pijjie is doing better at the bottom line but it is an up and down all the time. Sometimes she vomits a bit when I think it is getting better - then I have to put her back on baby cereal again. Her poop is still not looking very good but at least she is on 290 gr now (from 255 at the beginning). So I take this as a good sign. I assume that the antibiotics is not helping in this case. So patience is requested. I know that it will take a bit longer than I assumed to get her on track again. She does not drink as much as before and therefore her box is not getting as wet as before. The colour of her urinates is better though as well as from her poop which is much too wet still but does include the white urinates. I have eliminated the seeds from her box because each time when she ate some she vomitted them. Perhaps this was still the canker in her body - but the Spartrix I have given her for 5 days should have taken care of that. She does not have any leasions in mouth any more.
The overall impression she gives is much more liveliness and she is alert. Her eyes are clear and very curious looking. She is preening herself and since yesterday I let her out of her box because she also wants to train her flight muscles - helicoptering. I also wanted to see whether she can fly at all. She cannot. She also still shows stargazing from time to time but this has improved dramatically. But she seems to be much more happy and content since I let her out for a little while. She is a sweet little mouse.

Winnie - although she seems to have a lot of power still she is my little problem patient and I have the suspicion that she might have PMV too. She had lost a lot of weight until I could catch her but she is slowly catching up - she gained 10 gr which is not much but better than nothing. At least she did not vomit once but for safety I feed her only baby cereal at the moment with fruit and without milk powder because of the antibiotics.
Winnie shows quite a lot of seizures though - circling and slight tremors of her head - just as Willy had but not as strong - thank heaven. So it might still not be PMV altogether. Her poop is also still quite unsatisfying - just like Alice's - but is slightly improving. Not so wet any more and the colour has changed a bit too. Today I have put her on Conium maculatum - I still have some medication from Cynthia left from Pina's seizures. So we will see whether it makes a difference.
Both patients receive fluid calcium in the evening while I fed the antibiotics in the early morning so that this does not "meet" (acc. to Cynthia's instructions) in their crops.

Winnie still needs a lot of warmth which I supply via water bottle but at least she does not have any cold feet any more as at the beginning. She is a real amazon and each time I reach into her box I get a hard wing slap. But when she has her seizures and I put her into her batman cape and hold her on my chest, she becomes totally entranced and behaves like a sweet angel baby. Sometimes she does some helicoptering in her box also and is quite alert and regularly preening. I take this as a good sign as well.

But this is not all - another update will follow on the PMV story on "Pina's thread".

Petra...I'm glad to have an update and I'm very glad the medicine did arrive.

From my experience, vomiting can be caused by worms and yeast infection. Also from my experience with feral Pigeons, most often... more than one thing is making a Pigeon sick when the Pigeon is really down.

I'm so sorry about your situation with the veterinarins in your area. Perception is that veterinarians as doctors, should be willing to save life and have pure intentions always...sad that they are a representation of humans as a whole.


My love to you, Petra. Anything I can do to help you, I will certainly do it.

EgypSwiftLady wrote:

Oh Petra I have just caught up on your thread and just wanted to send my heartfelt sympathies about your pijjies

Thank you so much Robin - for your sympathies.

Matilda wrote:

Petra...I'm glad to have an update and I'm very glad the medicine did arrive.

From my experience, vomiting can be caused by worms and yeast infection. Also from my experience with feral Pigeons, most often... more than one thing is making a Pigeon sick when the Pigeon is really down.

I'm so sorry about your situation with the veterinarins in your area. Perception is that veterinarians as doctors, should be willing to save life and have pure intentions always...sad that they are a representation of humans as a whole.


My love to you, Petra. Anything I can do to help you, I will certainly do it.

Charis - thank you too and always for your kindness. I am afraid that all these things are getting a bit over my head now and I fear that it was my fault that some of our patients started vomitting as I have probably given them too much for fear that they would losing weight. Today I started their day with 10ml chamomille tea and a tiny bit of honey and nothing to eat until 1 pm in order to get them all their crop empty. Then all of them received a reduced quantity of baby cereal and added some probiotic yoghurt. Same this evening.

I have to add here that Jimi started to show canker sign a couple of days ago - so I had to put him on Spartrix fro 3 days. I gave Willy and Pina also one for safety as their poops started to come off also. As if I had not enough complications. All of them seem to undergo the same kind of infection although I was taking care so very that they did not cross infect but as we have to do this all in the appartment you probably cannot avoid everything. But as I already said - there is no alternative - so the pijjies and we have to live with this situation. I am cleaning all their boxes each day, washing them thoroughly. I am cleaning the feeding syringes and put them into a bowl with boiling water (I don't have a dish washer) for final desinfection. I cannot do more.

But there are not only bad news - Alice is definitely feeling much better. She did not only helicopter today but also tried to fly a bit. Not very successful yet but a beginning. And Winnie had less seizures today. And none of the pijjies really seem to be sick - their behaviour is as usual, Willy is cheaky and playing the bad boy, so does Pina. Jimi is angry because he cannot get out and is grumping a lot. So altogether today was not a bad day but a better one. Additionally the sun was shining and we were on the bycicle for an hour.

Still I hope that the whole situation is getting better soon again. I feel tired.

I'm so glad it was a better day for all of you, Petra. I'll keep thinking good thoughts for wonderrful you and your lovely feathered family.

pigeonwriter wrote:

Fancyfeathers wrote:

pigeonwriter wrote:

Still waiting for the Baytril to arrive but maybe it will on Monday or Tuesday.

Hi Petra,
Just checking in to see if the Baytril arrived.
I hope things are going well.

* Hi Cindy, my apologies for not giving an update earlier but things started to get a bit out of control here in my little "pigeon hospital" - I was just totally swamped and if my partner would not have kept an eye on me and what needed to be done next I probably would have given up already....

So I try to give this update now:

First - yes the Baytril arrived on Tuesday lunchtime.

Alice - the sweet little pijjie is doing better at the bottom line but it is an up and down all the time.

Winnie - although she seems to have a lot of power still she is my little problem patient and I have the suspicion that she might have PMV too.

* No apology necessary, Petra. Just checking in.
I'm thrilled to hear Alice is doing better.
Continued positive thoughts for Winnie.
And a super BIG to you.

Thank you for the update, Petra, especially considering how little time you have to yourself.
I'm so happy to hear that Alice and Winnie are doing better, and that the others are stable!
It's so difficult to look after several patients, especially when you can't rely on professional help... but we'll get round the corrupt system somehow. I've still got Baytril to spare, and when that's gone, there'll be something else -- Bactrim, Synulox, whatever -- which may not be precisely what's required, but can help. And my pharmacist knows about my rescues and just hands me anything for them over the counter, providing he can get hold of it. WHATEVER YOU NEED, JUST LET ME KNOW.

That's really kind of you, Teresa.

Matilda wrote:

That's really kind of you, Teresa.

All of the networking here makes an impossible task possible! :Yes:

I am so touched by the kindness that all of you show by stepping up and offering help

Each and everyone of you are true heroes

:Yes:

Teresa wrote:

Matilda wrote:

Teresa wrote:

I have to agree as well.
to all!!

Teresa wrote:

Thank you for the update, Petra, especially considering how little time you have to yourself.
I'm so happy to hear that Alice and Winnie are doing better, and that the others are stable!
It's so difficult to look after several patients, especially when you can't rely on professional help... but we'll get round the corrupt system somehow. I've still got Baytril to spare, and when that's gone, there'll be something else -- Bactrim, Synulox, whatever -- which may not be precisely what's required, but can help. And my pharmacist knows about my rescues and just hands me anything for them over the counter, providing he can get hold of it. WHATEVER YOU NEED, JUST LET ME KNOW.

Oh boy - Teresa - you are just making me cry. It is something completely new to me to have so many true friends suddenly although I know none of you "physically". It is like a miracle for me and I am not exaggerating. My former experiences with people have been very negative including family and long term "friends" who turned out to be everything else but friends - so sometimes you really lose belief in true human friendship. But you all are telling me something completely different. Not many words but deads. How can I thank you?

Cynthia has sent me another lot of Baytril and additionally some Metronidazole - now I am prepared for the next emergency that hopefully never comes. What a relief.

Thank you all for your love and a big to you all.

And here is a little update:


Alice is doing much better and is definitely on the way to recovery. I think I will keep the baytril currently for further emergencies because as Sunday was the last day where I could give her the medicine (it was the 5th day) - the gap is potentially too big now to continue the medication. Or what do you think?

I have fed her baby cereal twice the day and once defrosted peas the last few days and her poop has improved dramatically. First thing in the morning all of the pijjies are still getting chamomille tea to clean their crops - just in case. I also started to let her out of the box so that she can do her exercises and she does. She is helicoptering and today she even flew on top of my working table. She has also started to peck at the seeds and is able to eat the one or other small piece. So I consider this as a dramatic improvement. She also does not show any stargazing any more nor any other nervous symptoms.

Ah - I nearly forgot: I gave her a bath yesterday. She was so much enjoying it - she got really silly - you that expression they get when they feel so well. She started spalshing around immediately and then sat in the warm water for quite a while. Only at the end she probably lost her balance - the water was quite deep for her - and I had to save her from drowning as she was panicking a bit. Afterwards I had to wrap her up in a towel because she was soaking wet. She was so content afterwards and wiggled with her wings each time I cam near her box.

Winnie is still circling a lot though and she is still very sick. But she also shows some signs of recovery as her head tremors are not that bad any more. I am still keeping a hot water bottle for her. On a positive side she was the only one who did not vomit once. She eats well and digests well. A lot of poop - which still looks a bit awful but is going in the right direction colourwise. So she might not have PMV altogether. But if she has I know what I have to expect. But I am quite confident that she will recover also completely. I think the tea I am giving her in the morning as well and the fluid nutrition is washing all the bacteria out of her body.

As an aside - Willy who was her mate before he got PMV - is often sitting on her box when her is not busy with Pina - as if he wants to comfort her. And sometimes - when Winnie starts one of her seizures - he starts pecking loudly on her cover until she stops as if he wants to tell her that it will be getting better soon. Isn't this this amazing? I also have the feeling that Winnie feels better since she know that her beloved Willy is near....

My experience is the best way to avoid emergency is to be prepared for one, a reason, in part, why I always carry an umbrella.
I hope you will have no more emergencies.
We are here for you.

pigeonwriter wrote:

And here is a little update:


Alice is doing much better and is definitely on the way to recovery. I think I will keep the baytril currently for further emergencies because as Sunday was the last day where I could give her the medicine (it was the 5th day) - the gap is potentially too big now to continue the medication. Or what do you think?

I give baytril for 10 days. The instrustions from Bayer, for avian patients is 10- 14 days.

I have fed her baby cereal twice the day and once defrosted peas the last few days and her poop has improved dramatically. First thing in the morning all of the pijjies are still getting chamomille tea to clean their crops - just in case. I also started to let her out of the box so that she can do her exercises and she does. She is helicoptering and today she even flew on top of my working table. She has also started to peck at the seeds and is able to eat the one or other small piece. So I consider this as a dramatic improvement. She also does not show any stargazing any more nor any other nervous symptoms.

That's good. The peas have protein that she needs and because they are more solid, the poop will firm up.

Ah - I nearly forgot: I gave her a bath yesterday. She was so much enjoying it - she got really silly - you that expression they get when they feel so well. She started spalshing around immediately and then sat in the warm water for quite a while. Only at the end she probably lost her balance - the water was quite deep for her - and I had to save her from drowning as she was panicking a bit. Afterwards I had to wrap her up in a towel because she was soaking wet. She was so content afterwards and wiggled with her wings each time I cam near her box.

Sweet...I love that image my mind creates.

Winnie is still circling a lot though and she is still very sick. But she also shows some signs of recovery as her head tremors are not that bad any more. I am still keeping a hot water bottle for her. On a positive side she was the only one who did not vomit once. She eats well and digests well. A lot of poop - which still looks a bit awful but is going in the right direction colourwise. So she might not have PMV altogether. But if she has I know what I have to expect. But I am quite confident that she will recover also completely. I think the tea I am giving her in the morning as well and the fluid nutrition is washing all the bacteria out of her body.

I'm so thankful she is geting better.

Charis - I know - but what should I do now? There is a gap of 4 days now where she could not receive any medicine? Wouldn't it be worse if I start again now for another 5 days?

Petra, I would go for an additional 10 days if I had her in my care. It won't hurt her.